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Thread: Time to discuss this horrid lineup

  1. #1
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    Time to discuss this horrid lineup

    Alright, I've had enough of this lineup. Time to examine. Coming in to tonight is where these numbers come from.

    Does anyone else find it weird that our 6-7-8 hitters have been leading us in RBI's this season? Guys like Phillips (38), Edwin (36), and Ross in limited time (22 in 75 AB's coming in). Probably because high OBP guys like Dunn and Hatteberg are batting 5th and 6th many times.

    Why is our lineup ever:

    3. Griffey
    4. Aurilia
    5. Dunn

    Isn't the idea to get guys on base for your sluggers?

    Say the lineup is what it has been a lot lately:

    Freel (.377 obp)
    Lopez (.370 obp)
    Griffey (.337 obp and .551 slg)
    Aurilia (.313 obp and .473 slg)
    Dunn (.389 obp and .581 slg)

    PLEASE tell me why Dunn is batting 5th? Ever? Even vs. LH pitchers this year his obp is .440 and OPS'ing 1.093!!! Aurilia has been hitting well vs. LH'ers, but that only lasts about 2/3 of the game for the starter, then in comes a RH reliever, where his OPS is .565.

    With this lineup, the sum of the OBP for 1-2-3 spots, that lead up to your cleanup hitter is 1.084 for a .473 slugger batting 4th.

    Now try this:

    Freel (.377 obp)
    Lopez (.370 obp)
    Dunn (.389 obp and .581 slg)
    Griffey (.337 obp and .551 slg)
    Kearns (.347 obp and .492)
    Aurilia (.313 obp and .473 slg)

    Here, the sum of the OBP for 1-2-3 is 1.136 (.052 higher), that leads up to your cleanup hitter with a .551 slugging (.078 higher). Aurilia would benefit from this too because he would have more guys on base ahead of him.

    I just think this is ridiculous that Dunn is still batting 5th at times, and to me it makes no sense that Griffey is ever batting ahead of him. Dunn would be on base for Griffey so much more than Griffey is for Dunn. And when people are on base, Griffey will still see more pitches than Dunn will. I think this switch has to be made.

    I don't mind Hatteberg batting 2nd either. He is getting on base at a team leading .396. I dont care if he is slow, he isn't clogging the paths for the speedy Griffey, Aurilia, or Dunn.

    This is turning into a Miley lineup. He has to change it up. Aurilia is 9th in OPS on this team between the regulars, even Freel is beating him in OPS which is designed to keep in mind the power hitters more than "little guys" like him. Felipe has the lowest OPS on the team, and I think that is mainly because of when he faces LH'ers (.844 vs. RH, and .621 vs. LH), and if there is a LH starter, I wouldn't let him smell the top of the lineup.

    Rant over, discuss if you like.
    Last edited by TOBTTReds; 06-13-2006 at 11:29 PM.

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  3. #2
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Time to discuss this horrid lineup

    Like I said in the game thread, I have no problem with Aurilia hitting 4th vs lefties. His stats are phenomenal vs LHPs. Righties he has no business seeing the field.

    But do you maybe think that Dunn's numbers with runners on base might have something to do with it? He is hitting .180 with runners on. OPS is .820. Say what you wish, but this season he is obviously struggling with runners on. With RISP he is hitting .148 with an .860 OPS. Maybe Narron is looking at that.

    Bases empty: hitting .273 with an OPS of 1.075. Kind of weird.
    Last edited by edabbs44; 06-13-2006 at 11:34 PM.

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    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Time to discuss this horrid lineup

    BP needs to bat no lower then 5th. When he plays good things happen. He leads the team in RBI's, he is our best defender, and is our best base stealer. Phillips has been our most consistent player all year.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
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    got alil captain in u?
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    Re: Time to discuss this horrid lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44
    BP needs to bat no lower then 5th. When he plays good things happen. He leads the team in RBI's, he is our best defender, and is our best base stealer. Phillips has been our most consistent player all year.
    i agree he's become a more patient hitter since he's gotten here

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    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Time to discuss this horrid lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by captainmorgan07
    i agree he's become a more patient hitter since he's gotten here
    And he preforms awesome in the 1 or 2 spot. Why Narron insists on batting him down in the order and RA and Hat up in the order is beyond me.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

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    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Time to discuss this horrid lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by AvesIce51
    I just think this is ridiculous that Dunn is still batting 5th at times, and to me it makes no sense that Griffey is ever batting ahead of him. Dunn would be on base for Griffey so much more than Griffey is for Dunn. And when people are on base, Griffey will still see more pitches than Dunn will. I think this switch has to be made.
    I'm with you. I doubt there's another team in the league that wants to face Dunn in front of Jr. Fortunately for them the Reds are nothing if not congenial.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Time to discuss this horrid lineup

    Lopez
    Dunn
    Griffey
    Kearns
    Phillips


    You're 5 best hitters, hitting in the top 5 slots. Novel concept I know. Then I would put the Hat behind BP. He will take pitches allowing BP to steal bases. Dunn does the same for Lopez.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

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    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Time to discuss this horrid lineup

    Someone will pop in to say that it makes the bottom of the order weak, but I disagree and even if it did so what? do we want to continue to see a guy batting cleanup who isn't that great making the last out while Dunn and Kearns wait on deck? I don't.
    Go Gators!

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    Re: Time to discuss this horrid lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by KronoRed
    Someone will pop in to say that it makes the bottom of the order weak, but I disagree and even if it did so what? do we want to continue to see a guy batting cleanup who isn't that great making the last out while Dunn and Kearns wait on deck? I don't.
    It's not the batting order. It's the hitters. Too many of them are prone to lengthy slumps and are just not steady hitters. Team has lots of power, but lacks consistent, solid hitters.

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    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Time to discuss this horrid lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61
    It's not the batting order. It's the hitters. Too many of them are prone to lengthy slumps and are just not steady hitters. Team has lots of power, but lacks consistent, solid hitters.
    Yep I was saying that back when we went through our first slump. This lineup lacks diversity, it needs more contact hitters and less swing and miss and hit the ball far hitters.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

  12. #11
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Time to discuss this horrid lineup

    Contact like Sean Casey?
    Go Gators!

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    "Let's Roll" TeamBoone's Avatar
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    Re: Time to discuss this horrid lineup

    Narron tends to structure his nightly lineup according to individual Reds players' batting avg vs the opposing pitcher.

    IMHO, this microscopic view should be chucked in favor of a more consistent lineup... the description in the introductory post of this thread is a good place to start, looking at the big picture instead of a game-by-game, pitcher-by-pitcher snapshot approach.

    Most winning teams don't go in with a different lineup every night...
    Last edited by TeamBoone; 06-14-2006 at 02:07 AM.
    "Enjoy this Reds fans, you are watching a legend grow up before your very eyes" ... DoogMinAmo on Adam Dunn

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    Re: Time to discuss this horrid lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44
    Yep I was saying that back when we went through our first slump. This lineup lacks diversity, it needs more contact hitters and less swing and miss and hit the ball far hitters.
    I feel that way too, but it's not always as it seems. Even those guys slump. Hatteberg right now is in a 4-18 slump (mini though). He went 5 for 23 in his last 8 games of May. Also had a 4-26 slump in the beginning of May. Also started the season 3 for 22. This is all while not slugging too high (.435, not bad though).

    I like our hitters, but they slump, and it is VERY contagious.

  15. #14
    Member schroomytunes's Avatar
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    Re: Time to discuss this horrid lineup

    I think our best lineup has got to be:

    1)Felipe Lopez
    2)Brandon Phillips
    3)Adam Dunn
    4)Ken Griffey
    5)Austin Kearns
    6)Scott Hatteberg
    7)David Ross
    8)Edwin Encarnacion

    Its a solid lineup with speed at the top, power in the middle, and consistancy at the bottom.

  16. #15
    SSG, Red Army Choir Guacarock's Avatar
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    Re: Time to discuss this horrid lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by schroomytunes
    I think our best lineup has got to be:

    1)Felipe Lopez
    2)Brandon Phillips
    3)Adam Dunn
    4)Ken Griffey
    5)Austin Kearns
    6)Scott Hatteberg
    7)David Ross
    8)Edwin Encarnacion

    Its a solid lineup with speed at the top, power in the middle, and consistancy at the bottom.
    Looks like a decent blueprint to me, but I'd make these modest tweaks:

    1) Felipe Lopez
    2) Brandon Phillips/Ryan Freel
    3) Adam Dunn
    4) Ken Griffey
    5) Austin Kearns
    6) Edwin Encarnacion
    7) Scott Hatteberg/Rich Aurilia
    8) David Ross

    I'd move EE up because he's a young guy who has demonstrated some capability to plug the gap we're experiencing from the loss of Casey -- a consistent, contact, clutch hitter who doesn't necessarily aim first for the fences to put runs across the plate.

    Hatteberg is a proven vet with similar traits, but he'll be gone long before EE and his 16 RBI vs. 38 for EE suggests to me the kid is already better at clearing the tables. Aurilia can also clear the tables, but not set them often enough to justify batting him higher up in the order.

    Despite his recent pyrotechnics, I'd still hit Ross 8th. In a way, he becomes our second-tier cleanup man. If he keeps defying gravity and folks' expectations of his journeyman status. Ross' stock will continue to rise, and he can then count on moving up in the pecking order, the same as Phillips.


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