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Thread: Now the truth comes out... Jim Bowden was never....

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  1. #1
    Member paulrichjr's Avatar
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    Now the truth comes out... Jim Bowden was never....

    This just cracked me up. I wonder who gave Gammons this little rumor...
    You think JimBo takes any blame for the shambles that he left in Cincy's farm?

    http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog...peter#20060612

    Jim Bowden was never allowed to be big into the draft when he was in Cincinnati because he had owners who didn't believe in it, or its costs. But Bowden has been empowered to begin the reconstruction of the Washington Nationals, and threw himself into the draft. Bowden and the Nationals took the long-term route, with high-profile high school players like 3B Chris Marrero, Florida H.S. RHP Colton Willems, hard-throwing New Jersey RHP Sean Black and Orlando H.S. SS Stephen King. That is an indication that the new ownership is allowing Bowden to eventually trade for as much young talent as he can get, so the market for Alfonso Soriano, Jose Guillen, Livan Hernandez, Tony Armas, et al will be very interesting next month. Next to the draft, what Bowden enjoys most is making trades, so stay tuned.
    Last edited by paulrichjr; 06-14-2006 at 12:09 AM.
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  2. #2
    got alil captain in u?
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    Re: Now the truth comes out... Jim Bowden was never....

    we know about how jimbo does deals see ryan dempster brian moehler projects who those worked out

  3. #3
    Member Reds4Life's Avatar
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    Re: Now the truth comes out... Jim Bowden was never....

    Bowden is still a very bitter man when it comes to the Reds. He needs to move on and focus that energy on keeping his job in Washington.
    Pessimists are well informed optimists

  4. #4
    RZ Chamber of Commerce Unassisted's Avatar
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    Re: Now the truth comes out... Jim Bowden was never....

    I must admit that's a decent smokescreen to cover up or justify the choices that were made in the draft while he was in Cincinnati.

  5. #5
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Now the truth comes out... Jim Bowden was never....

    So no credit for Dunn and Kearns then
    Go Gators!

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    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Now the truth comes out... Jim Bowden was never....

    Quote Originally Posted by KronoRed
    So no credit for Dunn and Kearns then
    Edwin
    "The guy I think could be really good in center is Adam Dunn. If someone asked me if Dunn could be a center fielder for the next 10 years, if he started working on it, no one could explain to me why he couldn’t do it." - Brad Kullman

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    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Now the truth comes out... Jim Bowden was never....

    Jimbo was neither as bad as fans make him out to be nor as good as he believes he was.

    However, he was forced to pass up on a few high-level picks due to "signability" issues.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

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    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Now the truth comes out... Jim Bowden was never....

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool
    Jimbo was neither as bad as fans make him out to be nor as good as he believes he was.

    However, he was forced to pass up on a few high-level picks due to "signability" issues.
    That's exactly right. And Marge really downplayed the significance of the farm system and scouting. She refused to spend the money on what she thought was frivalous ventures.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  9. #9
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Now the truth comes out... Jim Bowden was never....

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC
    That's exactly right. And Marge really downplayed the significance of the farm system and scouting. She refused to spend the money on what she thought was frivalous ventures.
    Perhaps some of you who are more familiar with minor league operations can explain this to me: Why don't teams like the Reds who don't have high payrolls invest more in the minor leagues? Wouldn't that be a drop in the bucket compared to paying free agents tons of money? People like Marge and John Allen have ran this franchise over the past 20 years and they were people that liked to run things cheaply. Couldn't someone like JimBo or whoever gone up to them and appealed to their thriftiness and told them that, yeah, you may have to pay this draft pick an extra $50K but it is a drop in the bucket compared to what you have to pay major league players. What about hiring better coaches, scouts and instructors? Maybe you would have to pay them more to come to your organization but it's not like they are making huge money anyway. You don't have to even scrimp on the big club to do this. That may mean shipping higher priced veterans out and taking a chance on youth but it may pay dividends in the future. Look at the difference between paying Lizard and Dave Williams. The money that went, and is still going, to Williams could have gone to the Lizard and still had enough left over to pay salaries for, I don't know, five scouts? Or paying your 1st or 2nd round pick an extra $500K to get him in the minors ASAP rather than letting him hold out for a few months to prove a point? Now I'm not saying they should buy private planes for every affiliate in the minors. I think a little hardship helps these guys out. You don't want them getting too comfortable but treat them fairly. I believe a few more dollars soent in the right pace could have been the solution to some of out currect probems.
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  10. #10
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    Re: Now the truth comes out... Jim Bowden was never....

    Why don't teams like the Reds who don't have high payrolls invest more in the minor leagues? Wouldn't that be a drop in the bucket compared to paying free agents tons of money?
    In my post earlier I stated that a first round draft pick has a 1/3 chance to become a recognizable player and that those odds are very much skewed so that a pick in the top 10 will be much more likely to get there.

    Another way to look at it, is that in each draft there are 10 literally can't miss prospects. Now a couple of those guys ...will end up missing. They will either get hurt or end up with lifestyle issues or the scouts were just wrong..that happens, but the other 8 will end up being really good.

    Here...take a look at the 1985 draft at
    http://www.baseball-almanac.com/feats/1985draft.shtml

    In the first 10 picks you have Surhoff, Will Clark, Bobby Witt, Barry Larkin, Barry Bonds, Pete Incavaglia, and Chris Gwynn.
    At 11 you have Walt Weiss.
    At 17 you have Brian McRae.
    At 18 there is Joe Magraine.
    Greg Jeffries fell to 20 because he wanted money.
    Rafael Palmero went at 22.
    Joey Cora was at 23.

    The other 13 guys drafted were guys whose names I don't recognize at all.

    Now...if you're a "low budget" team and you have a chance at one of those first 10 pick then you have a choice. You can draft a "sure thing" we'll call him Drew Stubbs and invest 2 million dollars in him and...well maybe you get Barry Bonds and maybe you get Chris Gwyn. Either way your 2 million is gone. OR you can turn around and do what the Giants regularly do and "invest" that 2 million dollars in mid level free agents who will contribute to your major league team and NOT invest that two million in a sure thing, but take a "signability" pick instead. Somebody with a chance to make the big leagues, but not one of those "best in the draft" type players.

    During the end of the Bowden years, the reds did exactly that.

    That number on Stubbs by the way is real. That's what the reds paid this years #8 selection in the draft. Stubbs may be the reds center fielder in 2009 and he may not be. In order to sign him, they paid him essentially a bit more than the signed Hatteberg and Aurilia off the current free agent market.
    Last edited by dfs; 06-15-2006 at 10:26 AM.

  11. #11
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Now the truth comes out... Jim Bowden was never....

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R
    told them that, yeah, you may have to pay this draft pick an extra $50K but it is a drop in the bucket compared to what you have to pay major league players. .
    John Allen was initially on board with that line of thinking, until Howington and that Dominican OF from Japan imploded. Then Allen started saying in the press that Howington was a waste of money.. The draft money dried up big time after that. Look at the pre Howington drafts. The Reds paid pretty big money for Kearns, Larson, and paid a premium for Dunn as a second rounder.
    Obviously Howington and the Dominican OF are other examples of the Reds pumping money into the farm.. Then it all dried up.

    John Allen was extremely conservative. He didn't like any risks. He couldn't accept that even the best teams typically have maybe 30-50% of their first round picks pan out. It also appears that Allen was staunchly against paying anyone even $1 above slot money (perhaps this was Bud's influence). Therefore, the Reds missed several opportunities to sign guys that slid, or good draft and follows like Markalis.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  12. #12
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Now the truth comes out... Jim Bowden was never....

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool
    Jimbo was neither as bad as fans make him out to be nor as good as he believes he was.

    However, he was forced to pass up on a few high-level picks due to "signability" issues.

    Great summary.

    I will add to Bowden's defense that not many GM's have had two first round picks totally unfunded (Sowers + Esponisa). Then were forced to make signablity picks like Snamek, etc.

    Bottom line is that after Allen said in the press that Howington was a "waste of money", the draft money dried up.

    However, Bowden did make quite a few big gaffes, like passing over Berkman (because he was an "AL" player). Another one was to pick CJ Nitcowski #1 in hopes of him being a lefty out of the pen that fall to face Atlanta. Passing over Jeter and Garciparra was also an obvious mistake.

    But Bowden had quite a few successes in the pre-Howington era. Dunn, Kearns, Williamson, maybe LaRue. He also had an eye for picking young talent in trades (although it was mainly position players).
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  13. #13
    Hisssssssss Yachtzee's Avatar
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    Re: Now the truth comes out... Jim Bowden was never....

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool
    Jimbo was neither as bad as fans make him out to be nor as good as he believes he was.

    However, he was forced to pass up on a few high-level picks due to "signability" issues.
    I think the first statement if a fair assessment. However, lots of teams have to pass up draft picks because of signability issues. It doesn't always have to do with whether a team can afford the player or not. Smart teams are going to be very careful about players asking for the big money because no one wants to end up with another Brien Taylor.

    I don't know him personally, so my impressions are based on what I've seen in the papers and on TV. My feeling on Jim Bowden is that he is a bright guy, but he lacks self-control. He lacks it when he speaks and he seems to lack it when he does business. My theory is that working with a small budget actually helped reign him in. I feel that if they had opened the pocketbooks, he would have just spent it poorly. The other big issue I saw was that he seems to have this desire to have to "win" trades. With the Griffey trade in particular, there were a few times when he seemed to be gloating about how he got the best of the deal. Not exactly a good way to do business in an industry where you have a limited number of organization with whom you can deal.

    All in all, Bowden made some brilliant moves and some real stinkers.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

  14. #14
    Who, What, Where, When? Tornon's Avatar
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    Re: Now the truth comes out... Jim Bowden was never....

    Edwin wasn't drafted by us

  15. #15
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Now the truth comes out... Jim Bowden was never....

    Quote Originally Posted by Tornon
    Edwin wasn't drafted by us
    Yes, but Bowden traded for him.
    "The guy I think could be really good in center is Adam Dunn. If someone asked me if Dunn could be a center fielder for the next 10 years, if he started working on it, no one could explain to me why he couldn’t do it." - Brad Kullman


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