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Thread: Now the truth comes out... Jim Bowden was never....

  1. #31
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Now the truth comes out... Jim Bowden was never....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray
    I beg to differ. Re-check your sources.

    I believe Bowden was hired right after the 1992 season and was the GM during the expansion draft where FL drafted Hoffman

    Later it was Wetteland who was traded for Willie Greene and CF Martinez from the Expos, also on Bowden's watch.

    Any problems with those facts???
    John Wettland:

    Traded by Los Angeles Dodgers with Tim Belcher to Cincinnati Reds in exchange for Eric Davis and Kip Gross (November 27, 1991).

    Traded by Cincinnati Reds with Bill Risley to Montreal Expos in exchange for Dave Martinez, Scott Ruskin and Willie Greene (December 11, 1991).
    Bowden was hired in October of 1992

    The expansion Draft was 11-17-1992

    So yes Hoffman was drafted in Bowdens 1st 50 days, but he didn't trade John Wettland.

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  3. #32
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Now the truth comes out... Jim Bowden was never....

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R
    told them that, yeah, you may have to pay this draft pick an extra $50K but it is a drop in the bucket compared to what you have to pay major league players. .
    John Allen was initially on board with that line of thinking, until Howington and that Dominican OF from Japan imploded. Then Allen started saying in the press that Howington was a waste of money.. The draft money dried up big time after that. Look at the pre Howington drafts. The Reds paid pretty big money for Kearns, Larson, and paid a premium for Dunn as a second rounder.
    Obviously Howington and the Dominican OF are other examples of the Reds pumping money into the farm.. Then it all dried up.

    John Allen was extremely conservative. He didn't like any risks. He couldn't accept that even the best teams typically have maybe 30-50% of their first round picks pan out. It also appears that Allen was staunchly against paying anyone even $1 above slot money (perhaps this was Bud's influence). Therefore, the Reds missed several opportunities to sign guys that slid, or good draft and follows like Markalis.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  4. #33
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Now the truth comes out... Jim Bowden was never....

    Quote Originally Posted by redsfanfalcon
    Who did we give for Guzman? A guy named BJ Ryan. I know Guzman helped us in 99, but we certainly could have used Ryan up through last year. I think Ryan was a wee bit better than a guy named Graves.
    Nice point, but I make the Guzman trade every time. It almost got us to the playoffs. Having BJ on our team from 2000-2006 would made the team more entertaining, but would not have gotten us to the playoffs.

    When you have a legit chance of making the playoffs, like 1999, you do it, even if it means pillaging the farm system. A team like Cincy might have to wait another 10 or 20 years to get a chance like 1999 again.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  5. #34
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    Re: Now the truth comes out... Jim Bowden was never....

    with respect to both of the Ryan and the Wetteland deals....

    Given the reds bullpen situation at the time, they made sense.

    That seems silly if your point of view is an unstable bullpen that regularly squanders leads, but the 92 reds still had Dibble and Charlton in the pen and they had closer relief pitchers out the wazoo in the system. Before his hand injury Willie Greene was a prize.

    About the Guzman/Ryan deal...again the reds had pre-starter Danny Graves, Sullivan, Williamson and Gabe White and during the offseaon he has picked up nominal "closers" Hudek and Belinda for nothing. Ryan was percieved as excess and dealt to try and get to the playoffs. You can't blame Bowden for not thinking the team was going to go into fire sale mode and deal every pitcher with an arm over the next few years.
    Last edited by dfs; 06-15-2006 at 12:14 PM.

  6. #35
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Now the truth comes out... Jim Bowden was never....

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    Bowden was hired in October of 1992

    The expansion Draft was 11-17-1992

    So yes Hoffman was drafted in Bowdens 1st 50 days, but he didn't trade John Wettland.
    Makes sense. Thanks for checking!

  7. #36
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Now the truth comes out... Jim Bowden was never....

    Quote Originally Posted by dfs
    with respect to both of the Ryan and the Wettland deals....

    Given the reds bullpen situation at the time, they made sense.

    That seems silly if your point of view is an unstable bullpen that regularly squanders leads, but the 92 reds still had Dibble and Charlton in the pen and they had closer relief pitchers out the wazoo in the system. Before his hand injury Willie Greene was a prize.

    About the Guzman/Ryan deal...again the reds had pre-starter Danny Graves, Sullivan, Williamson and Gabe White and during the offseaon he has picked up nominal "closers" Hudek and Belinda for nothing. Ryan was percieved as excess and dealt to try and get to the playoffs. You can't blame Bowden for not thinking the team was going to go into fire sale mode and deal every pitcher with an arm over the next few years.
    It's a matter of value. Sure, you can trade a Ryan or a Hoffman but did you get value in return? The Guzman trade is arguable. Hoffman was not. In fact the Hoffman decision came down to Trevor or 1B Tim Costa. If it comes down to a 1B or a pitcher, you err on the side of squandering pitching. You keep the pitcher. Bowden unvalued pitching.

    I'll add another, the Sean Casey deal. As we've found out this year with Hatteberg, guys who can do the things Sean Casey can are a dime a dozen. That sort of player is not worth trading your ace pitcher in his prime. No way Dave Burba, an ace in our rotation, a #3 starter on a division winning Indians team, was worth a 1B when others such as Dimitri Young and Konerko could have filled the bill at 1B.

  8. #37
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    Re: Now the truth comes out... Jim Bowden was never....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray
    The Guzman trade is arguable. Hoffman was not.
    Hoffman was not considered a 'top prospect' at the time. He was a 25 year old who had already failed as an infield prospect and only had about 150 IP in the minors. He was short, had a mediocre fastball, and struggled badly when he was converted to the bullpen in AAA.

    Hoffman was a middling prospect at best. That he blossomed into an All-Star is a testament to the capricious nature of 'prospect prognostication' rather than an indictment of JimBo's eye for talent.

  9. #38
    You're soaking in it! MartyFan's Avatar
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    Re: Now the truth comes out... Jim Bowden was never....

    Brandon Larson reached the majors as a marginal player.
    "Sometimes, it's not the sexiest moves that put you over the top," Krivsky said. "It's a series of transactions that help you get there."

  10. #39
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Now the truth comes out... Jim Bowden was never....

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainHook
    Hoffman was not considered a 'top prospect' at the time. He was a 25 year old who had already failed as an infield prospect and only had about 150 IP in the minors. He was short, had a mediocre fastball, and struggled badly when he was converted to the bullpen in AAA.

    Hoffman was a middling prospect at best. That he blossomed into an All-Star is a testament to the capricious nature of 'prospect prognostication' rather than an indictment of JimBo's eye for talent.
    I disagree with your scouting report and so did the Florida Marlins. That's why they snatched him up when they could. He was a failed infield prospect but he was regarded as having a "very good" arm, yet green as a pitcher. The Marlins saw this and Bowden missed it. That's what separates Bowden from the better talent evaluators in the league.


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