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Thread: Cooperstown Talk: Borderline First Basemen

  1. #1
    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
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    Cooperstown Talk: Borderline First Basemen

    My personal feeling is that Mattingly and Clark will be Hall of Famers, especially if the future veteran's committee gets to decide their fates, but Hernandez I'm not so sure about. However, when looking at the stats, they are almost identical. My take on Mattingly is that if you are going to have Puckett in the HOF, then Mattingly should be there as well. Clark, not only was a good hitter, but he was also lights out defensively at first, so was Hernandez, as his 11 Gold Gloves can attest. Thoughts on these three?


    Keith Hernandez

    Code:
     Year Ag Tm  Lg  G   AB    R    H   2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB  SO   BA   OBP   SLG   TB   SH  SF IBB HBP GDP 
    +--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
     1974 20 STL NL  14   34    3   10   1  2   0    2   0  0   7   8  .294  .415  .441   15   0   0   0   0   1
     1975 21 STL NL  64  188   20   47   8  2   3   20   0  1  17  26  .250  .309  .362   68   0   2   2   0   5
     1976 22 STL NL 129  374   54  108  21  5   7   46   4  2  49  53  .289  .376  .428  160   2   0   5   3   8
     1977 23 STL NL 161  560   90  163  41  4  15   91   7  7  79  88  .291  .379  .459  257   3   2  11   1  17
     1978 24 STL NL 159  542   90  138  32  4  11   64  13  5  82  68  .255  .351  .389  211   1   6  11   2  12
     1979 25 STL NL 161  610  116  210  48 11  11  105  11  6  80  78  .344  .417  .513  313   0   7   5   1   9
     1980 26 STL NL 159  595  111  191  39  8  16   99  14  8  86  73  .321  .408  .494  294   1   4   4   4  14
     1981 27 STL NL 103  376   65  115  27  4   8   48  12  5  61  45  .306  .401  .463  174   0   5   6   2   9
     1982 28 STL NL 160  579   79  173  33  6   7   94  19 11 100  67  .299  .397  .413  239   1  12  19   2  10
     1983 29 TOT NL 150  538   77  160  23  7  12   63   9  5  88  72  .297  .396  .433  233   2   3  14   2   7
             STL NL  55  218   34   62  15  4   3   26   1  1  24  30  .284  .352  .431   94   0   2   5   0   2
             NYM NL  95  320   43   98   8  3   9   37   8  4  64  42  .306  .424  .434  139   2   1   9   2   5
     1984 30 NYM NL 154  550   83  171  31  0  15   94   2  3  97  89  .311  .409  .449  247   0   9  12   1   9
     1985 31 NYM NL 158  593   87  183  34  4  10   91   3  3  77  59  .309  .384  .430  255   0  10  15   2  14
     1986 32 NYM NL 149  551   94  171  34  1  13   83   2  1  94  69  .310  .413  .446  246   0   3   9   4  14
     1987 33 NYM NL 154  587   87  170  28  2  18   89   0  2  81 104  .290  .377  .436  256   0   4   8   4  15
     1988 34 NYM NL  95  348   43   96  16  0  11   55   2  1  31  57  .276  .333  .417  145   0   4   3   1  11
     1989 35 NYM NL  75  215   18   50   8  0   4   19   0  3  27  39  .233  .324  .326   70   0   0   3   2   4
     1990 36 CLE AL  43  130    7   26   2  0   1    8   0  0  14  17  .200  .283  .238   31   0   0   3   1   2
    +--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
     17 Seasons         7370      2182     60     1071     63    1012  .296  .384  .436       10  71 130  32 161
                   2088      1124      426    162       98   1070                       3214
    Don Mattingly

    Code:
     Year Ag Tm  Lg  G   AB    R    H   2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB  SO   BA   OBP   SLG   TB   SH  SF IBB HBP GDP 
    +--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
     1982 21 NYY AL   7   12    0    2   0  0   0    1   0  0   0   1  .167  .154  .167    2   0   1   0   0   2
     1983 22 NYY AL  91  279   34   79  15  4   4   32   0  0  21  31  .283  .333  .409  114   2   2   5   1   8
     1984 23 NYY AL 153  603   91  207  44  2  23  110   1  1  41  33  .343  .381  .537  324   8   9   8   1  15
     1985 24 NYY AL 159  652  107  211  48  3  35  145   2  2  56  41  .324  .371  .567  370   2  15  13   2  15
     1986 25 NYY AL 162  677  117  238  53  2  31  113   0  0  53  35  .352  .394  .573  388   1  10  11   1  17
     1987 26 NYY AL 141  569   93  186  38  2  30  115   1  4  51  38  .327  .378  .559  318   0   8  13   1  16
     1988 27 NYY AL 144  599   94  186  37  0  18   88   1  0  41  29  .311  .353  .462  277   0   8  14   3  13
     1989 28 NYY AL 158  631   79  191  37  2  23  113   3  0  51  30  .303  .351  .477  301   0  10  18   1  15
     1990 29 NYY AL 102  394   40  101  16  0   5   42   1  0  28  20  .256  .308  .335  132   0   3  13   3  13
     1991 30 NYY AL 152  587   64  169  35  0   9   68   2  0  46  42  .288  .339  .394  231   0   9  11   4  21
     1992 31 NYY AL 157  640   89  184  40  0  14   86   3  0  39  43  .288  .327  .416  266   0   6   7   1  11
     1993 32 NYY AL 134  530   78  154  27  2  17   86   0  0  61  42  .291  .364  .445  236   0   3   9   2  20
     1994 33 NYY AL  97  372   62  113  20  1   6   51   0  0  60  24  .304  .397  .411  153   0   4   7   0   8
     1995 34 NYY AL 128  458   59  132  32  2   7   49   0  2  40  35  .288  .341  .413  189   0   8   7   1  17
    +--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
     14 Seasons         7003      2153     20     1099      9     444  .307  .358  .471       13  96 136  21 191
                   1785      1007      442    222       14    588                       3301
    Will Clark

    Code:
     Year Ag Tm  Lg  G   AB    R    H   2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB  SO   BA   OBP   SLG   TB   SH  SF IBB HBP GDP 
    +--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
     1986 22 SFG NL 111  408   66  117  27  2  11   41   4  7  34  76  .287  .343  .444  181   9   4  10   3   3
     1987 23 SFG NL 150  529   89  163  29  5  35   91   5 17  49  98  .308  .371  .580  307   3   2  11   5   2
     1988 24 SFG NL 162  575  102  162  31  6  29  109   9  1 100 129  .282  .386  .508  292   0  10  27   4   9
     1989 25 SFG NL 159  588  104  196  38  9  23  111   8  3  74 103  .333  .407  .546  321   0   8  14   5   6
     1990 26 SFG NL 154  600   91  177  25  5  19   95   8  2  62  97  .295  .357  .448  269   0  13   9   3   7
     1991 27 SFG NL 148  565   84  170  32  7  29  116   4  2  51  91  .301  .359  .536  303   0   4  12   2   5
     1992 28 SFG NL 144  513   69  154  40  1  16   73  12  7  73  82  .300  .384  .476  244   0  11  23   4   5
     1993 29 SFG NL 132  491   82  139  27  2  14   73   2  2  63  68  .283  .367  .432  212   1   6   6   6  10
     1994 30 TEX AL 110  389   73  128  24  2  13   80   5  1  71  59  .329  .431  .501  195   0   6  11   3   5
     1995 31 TEX AL 123  454   85  137  27  3  16   92   0  1  68  50  .302  .389  .480  218   0  11   6   4   7
     1996 32 TEX AL 117  436   69  124  25  1  13   72   2  1  64  67  .284  .377  .436  190   0   7   5   5  10
     1997 33 TEX AL 110  393   56  128  29  1  12   51   0  0  49  62  .326  .400  .496  195   0   5  11   3   4
     1998 34 TEX AL 149  554   98  169  41  1  23  102   1  0  72  97  .305  .384  .507  281   0   7   5   3  15
     1999 35 BAL AL  77  251   40   76  15  0  10   29   2  2  38  42  .303  .395  .482  121   0   3   2   2   5
     2000 36 TOT    130  427   78  136  30  2  21   70   5  2  69  69  .319  .418  .546  233   0   4   3   7   7
             BAL AL  79  256   49   77  15  1   9   28   4  2  47  45  .301  .413  .473  121   0   3   3   4   4
             STL NL  51  171   29   59  15  1  12   42   1  0  22  24  .345  .426  .655  112   0   1   0   3   3
    +--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
     15 Seasons         7173      2176     47     1205     48    1190  .303  .384  .497       13 101 155  59 100
                   1976      1186      440    284       67    937                       3562
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!

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  3. #2
    Member NJReds's Avatar
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    Re: Cooperstown Talk: Borderline First Basemen

    Mattingly was the best of the three, but his bad back caused him to flame out quickly. The Puckett arguement is the best one for Mattingly supporters, but Puckett also had some great World Series moments. My inclination is to let the Veteran's Committee decide.

    Hernandez and Clark were consistantly good, but not great, so in my book, not Hall of Fame.

  4. #3
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: Cooperstown Talk: Borderline First Basemen

    Clark, Hernandez, then Mattingly ... in that order.

    I'd put Clark in; he had an incredible peak that was right in the middle of a terribly low scoring era while also playing in a ridiculous pitcher's park. His problem is he was just a jerk. Hernandez is borderline, right around the Orlando Cepeda/George Sisler/Bill Terry level.

    Mattingly is a bit behind all of them.

    FWIW, Dick Allen was a greater player than all three of them, but he's an even more extreme version of Clark in that Allen is probably on the short list of the biggest jerks in baseball history.
    Barry Larkin - HOF, 2012

    Put an end to the Lost Decade.

  5. #4
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Cooperstown Talk: Borderline First Basemen

    I don't think any of the three should be there. This is the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good we're talking about. Puck has more credentials than Donnie Baseball. Period.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

  6. #5
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    Re: Cooperstown Talk: Borderline First Basemen

    I agree with RedEye. I don't consider any of those players to be top level first basemen of all time. They all have about 2100 hits and lower homerun totals than what I would consider for a first baseman. Mattingly gets the New York press treatment to help him out in the eyes of the public and the baseball writers. Kriby was a different level greater than the three players mentioned and I would not have voted Kirby into the hall of fame.

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    Re: Cooperstown Talk: Borderline First Basemen

    Add me to the list of those that are against. Look at their stats. For 1st basemen they do not do much for me to be of HOF caliber. The HOF is too crowded as is. If you start showing stats of these guys well where does it end?

    Vada Pinson, Bobby Bonds , Rusty Staub (this list could go on for awhile)?

  8. #7
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    Re: Cooperstown Talk: Borderline First Basemen

    Jim Rice

    8 time All-Star
    382 career homers 1,451 RBI's .298 lifetime AVG
    9 times A.L. Top Ten in RBI's (#1 twice)
    9 times Top Ten in Total Bases (# 1 4 times)
    8 times Top Ten in hits (#1 once)
    7 times Top Ten in HR's (#1 3 times)
    6 times Top Ten in AVG
    6 times Top Ten in runs
    51st all time in homers and RBI's
    61st in Total Bases
    91st in hits

    If Rice can't get in the other three don't have a snowball's chance in going.

  9. #8
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    Re: Cooperstown Talk: Borderline First Basemen

    Hernandez also has the cocaine thing in his past.
    I was in the ORG once, best 6 months of my life.

  10. #9
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Cooperstown Talk: Borderline First Basemen

    None of these guys are even borderline for me, productive but not legendary
    Go Gators!

  11. #10
    Plays The Right Way Hap's Avatar
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    Re: Cooperstown Talk: Borderline First Basemen

    Darrell Evans

    statistics are very similar to tony perez

    played same positions and was a better fielder

    played on many mediocre and bad teams
    .

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    Re: Cooperstown Talk: Borderline First Basemen

    Hernandez called a better game than 95% of the catchers in the NL. He was the brains behind all those good Mets teams. His defense was much better than Clarks...not putting Clark down but Hernandez was a once in a generation defensive 1st baseman.

    Mattingly was above average 6 years -below average 6 years ----doesn't that make him average?

    Kirby goes in.
    Clark does not.
    Mattingly will not.
    Hernandez will not --but was better than any of those guys listed above.

  13. #12
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    Re: Cooperstown Talk: Borderline First Basemen

    No way to all. A todays 1st baseman needs have either 400 HR's or 2500 Hits or an OPS near 1.000 to even be considered for the H of F.

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    Re: Cooperstown Talk: Borderline First Basemen


  15. #14
    15 game winner Danny Serafini's Avatar
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    Re: Cooperstown Talk: Borderline First Basemen

    If I had to take one it would be Mattingly, for a period of time he was truly great. He's one of the great what ifs, had he been able to stay healthy he could've put up really big numbers. But he didn't do it long enough to put him in the hall. Hernandez and Clark were never great, just very good. That makes for a nice career, but doesn't put them in the hall.

  16. #15
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Cooperstown Talk: Borderline First Basemen

    I wouldn't be surprised if Sean Casey ends up with career statistics similar to these three. Is he a Hall of Famer? Nice guy, but I think we all know the answer to that question.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013


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