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Thread: Over-running first base...

  1. #1
    Your killin' me Smalls! StillFunkyB's Avatar
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    Over-running first base...

    I just flipped on the Braves Yanks game on TBS and Cairo hit a slow roller back to first and "slid" past the first baseman, and touched the base then rolled away.

    I started thinking about it, and it just seems like this should be against the rules. It just seemed odd. I guess I have always understood the rule about over-running first was so that you could run hard the whole way, with no need to slide.

    I was thinking that if you slide into first you should have to stay on the bag.

    Thoughts?
    "And the fact that watching him pitch is like having someone poop on your soul." FCB on Gary Majewski

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  3. #2
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Over-running first base...

    The only reason you should be sliding at all is because the first baseman was pulled off the bag and sliding allows you to avoid the tag. Otherwise, sliding only slows you down.

    In terms of rule, I don't see the difference between sliding through and running through.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  4. #3
    Score Early, Score Often gonelong's Avatar
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    Re: Over-running first base...

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick
    The only reason you should be sliding at all is because the first baseman was pulled off the bag and sliding allows you to avoid the tag. Otherwise, sliding only slows you down.
    I have always questioned the validity of this.

    I think if you actually did slide, then it would slow you down a bit, however, if you dove headfirst and made contact with the bag before your body hit the ground I would have to think it would be faster.

    GL

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    Re: Over-running first base...

    I just flipped on the Braves Yanks game on TBS and Cairo hit a slow roller back to first and "slid" past the first baseman, and touched the base then rolled away.
    The play I think you are describing sounds like he can be tagged out. Say you are running down the line, accidentally miss the bag when the 1b gets pulled off. You can't just go back and touch the bag, then walk away from it like it is a dead ball. You might not be explaining it like that on the slide play, but it sounds like a possibility. He was just laying next to the bag, he can't just tap it, then pull his hand off if he has no momentum pulling him off.

  6. #5
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Over-running first base...

    Quote Originally Posted by gonelong
    I have always questioned the validity of this.

    I think if you actually did slide, then it would slow you down a bit, however, if you dove headfirst and made contact with the bag before your body hit the ground I would have to think it would be faster.

    GL
    Perhaps if the slide was in the Pete Rose, hurl yourself forward through the air like superman, type dive, then yes. However, with a 1B anchored to the bag, that sounds like a great way to break a finger, or a wrist, or disclocate a shoulder.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  7. #6
    Score Early, Score Often gonelong's Avatar
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    Re: Over-running first base...

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick
    Perhaps if the slide was in the Pete Rose, hurl yourself forward through the air like superman, type dive, then yes. However, with a 1B anchored to the bag, that sounds like a great way to break a finger, or a wrist, or disclocate a shoulder.
    You only have to touch the bag, you don't have to own it.

    Between baseball and softball I have seen 1000's of headfirst slides and have never seen anyone break a finger or dislocate a shoulder. Honestly, I can't recall ever seeing one in a MLB game either.

    GL

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    Re: Over-running first base...

    Quote Originally Posted by gonelong
    You only have to touch the bag, you don't have to own it.

    Between baseball and softball I have seen 1000's of headfirst slides and have never seen anyone break a finger or dislocate a shoulder. Honestly, I can't recall ever seeing one in a MLB game either.

    GL
    Really? I feel like the Reds had someone jam their hand or wrist a couple years ago sliding into first. Might have been D'Lo with a shoulder or something. I've seen it quite a bit.

    Junior Spivey did it in Cincy two years ago.
    Spivey injured himself while sliding head-first into first base on July 2 in Pittsburgh. Shortly after, the Brewers were told that Spivey would be out two to four weeks.
    Here's one of Coco Crisp last year:
    Coco Crisp, who severely sprained his right thumb while sliding last month, could be ready to return and the Indians would prefer to activate him rather than make another roster move. Crisp was initially expected to miss three months, but the injury wasn't as bad as first thought, and the outfielder may be ready.
    And one from this year:
    Finally, I should note that my sources confirmed that Michael Barrett -- who wasn't likely going to play today anyway -- did have x-rays on his finger after the headfirst slide into 2nd last night.
    Here are two from the same day in '03
    PIRATES: Former Gold Glove second baseman Pokey Reese will be lost until at least mid-July with a torn ligament in his left thumb, which was injured sliding Tuesday night. He'll have surgery today.
    METS: Shortstop Rey Sanchez was placed on the 15-day disabled list with an injured left thumb, hurt while sliding Saturday against the Padres.
    OK, I'm done.

    Dont mean to be a jerk by posting those, but I just figured if you had really seen thousands of head first slides, you might have seen someone get hurt, especially a game in cincy.
    Last edited by TOBTTReds; 06-28-2006 at 03:37 PM.

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    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Over-running first base...

    Didn't Kenny Lofton really screw up his shoulder in a first base slide in a playoff game while with Cleveland? Just going by memory here but I think it was messed up until the next season

  10. #9
    Score Early, Score Often gonelong's Avatar
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    Re: Over-running first base...

    Quote Originally Posted by AvesIce51
    Dont mean to be a jerk by posting those, but I just figured if you had really seen thousands of head first slides, you might have seen someone get hurt, especially a game in cincy.
    A quick estimate has me at about 500 live witnesses to headfirst slides between baseball and softball. I have seen 1000s of MLB games over the years, so even a single HF slide in each one of them assures I haves seen 1000s of HF slides. I really cannot recall a single instance that landed a guy on the DL. I can recall quite a few feet first slides that have put guys on the DL for extended stays, and even more instances of a guy pulling a hammy legging one down to 1B. I guess I just don't see a HF dive as an uneccessary risk.

    I have no issue with you posting the above ... they are historic record and I won't take offense to that. I watch 150+ games a year and I don't recall seeing that type of injury over the last several years. Given that there are almost 2500 games a year I catch only about 6% of them, its inevitable that I won't see (or recall) everything in any given season or run of seasons.

    I have no doubt it happens, but I have seen all sorts of guys get injured sliding feet first.

    GL

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    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Over-running first base...

    I've heard all my life that a headfirst slide into first is slower than running through the bag without breaking stride.

    If it wasn't, why wouldn't sprinters dive across the line for olympic gold?
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    ~ Mark Twain

  12. #11
    Oy Vey! Red in Chicago's Avatar
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    Re: Over-running first base...

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62
    I've heard all my life that a headfirst slide into first is slower than running through the bag without breaking stride.

    If it wasn't, why wouldn't sprinters dive across the line for olympic gold?

    cuz they wear shorts

  13. #12
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Over-running first base...

    Quote Originally Posted by Red in Chicago
    cuz they wear shorts

    What sprinter wouldn't dive to win a race if he thought it was faster, especially the olympics, even if he knew he'd have bloody knees after the dive.

    It's faster to run through the bag.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    ~ Mark Twain

  14. #13
    Score Early, Score Often gonelong's Avatar
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    Re: Over-running first base...

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

    OBJECTIVE: To determine the method of sliding that propels the baseball athlete to the desired base in the shortest amount of time. To assess the athlete's perception of the quickest, safest, and preferred sliding technique.

    DESIGN: A single occasion with repeated measures design was used. The independent variable was slide type, and the dependent variable was time.

    SETTING: The study was conducted in October 2000 at the University of Kentucky baseball complex.

    PARTICIPANTS: Twenty collegiate baseball players.

    INTERVENTIONS: High-speed video (to 1/200th of second) analysis of 20 collegiate baseball players performing 3 trials each of both head-first and feet-first sliding techniques. Additionally, each participant was asked to complete a sliding survey.

    MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: The videotape of each slide performed was reviewed separately (using the same viewing equipment) by 2 of the study investigators. Slide type and time were recorded for each slide.

    RESULTS: There was no significant difference between head-first versus feet-first slide times (P = 0.357). The average time for feet-first slides was 3.67 seconds, while that for head-first was 3.65 seconds. Sixty-eight percent of the players felt that head-first slides were faster than feet-first slides. Seventy-four percent identified the feet-first slide as the technique they most used, while 90% of the athletes perceived the feet-first technique to be safer.

    CONCLUSIONS: On average, head-first and feet-first sliding techniques employed at the end aspect of base running propel the baseball player to the base in similar times. The head-first sliding technique is perceived to be faster and more dangerous.
    90 ft x 12 inches = 1080 inches

    1080 inches/3.65 seconds = 295.89 inches/sec

    295.89 inch/sec * .02 difference = 5.9 inch difference

    GL

    /not real scientific, just sayin'
    Last edited by gonelong; 06-28-2006 at 05:06 PM.

  15. #14
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Over-running first base...

    Uh, isn't that study looking at different types of slides, rather than compared to running through the base?
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    ~ Mark Twain

  16. #15
    Score Early, Score Often gonelong's Avatar
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    Re: Over-running first base...

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62
    Uh, isn't that study looking at different types of slides, rather than compared to running through the base?
    Yep, was trying to put something up before logging off today and in my haste, royally screwed up. Nice catch!

    Somebody has probably done the study ... I'll look for one this evening if I get a chance.

    GL


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