Originally posted by Red LvJ
The amount of time a guy has been here doesn't increase, nor decrease a guys brain power. Heh.
Take you, for an example.
Originally posted by Red LvJ
The amount of time a guy has been here doesn't increase, nor decrease a guys brain power. Heh.
Take you, for an example.
Soriano has too much power to stay at the lead off spot any longer than another year or two, I think most teams would eventually like to see him as a #3 or #4 hitter.
Soriano's OBP isn't that hot -- .329 as of tonight -- because he has one of the lowest walk rates in the majors. His power makes him a very valuable offensive player, especially considering his position, but his low OBP makes him better suited to hit in the middle of the order rather than leading off.
Man, there is a lot of crap in this thread
1) Soriano is not a good leadoff hitter. He has a .329 OBP. He will likely never be a good leadoff hitter because he is a freak like vlad who can swing and hit just about any pitch and will. With his power and low OBP, you are looking at an ideal 4 or 5 hitter. Course, getting past the stereotype of where you bat a speedy 2B is tough there. I would say the 3 best leadoff hitters in the game are probably Ichiro Suzuki, Luis Castillo and Shannon Stewart, in that order.
2) For those trying to put up an offer comparable to the Colon offer, the only guy that really could be considered comparable to Phillips at the time of that trade was Austin Kearns. Now, Austin has moved ahead of Phillips some in trade value because he is producing NOW at the major league level. But please stop trying to say that WilyMo and Scott Dunn and Howington or whatever is comparable to the deal CLE got for Colon. Because I have not seen anyone come anywhere close in this thread. The closest we could have come to what Montreal offered at the time would have been something like Casey, Kearns, Espinosa, Howington. Anybody want to deal those four in exchange for Colon? How about for Burnett? I sure as heck wouldn't.
3) Back to Burnett. The only guy that the Marlins might trade Burnett (or Beckett) for straight up on our roster is Adam Dunn. And I think that is absolutely right on their side. I also don't think I would trade Adam Dunn for either of them. All three of the guys we are talking about have a very good opportunity to be special players. And you don't trade special players, even for each other. Because what happens when one guy becomes special and the other doesn't? Somebody looks bad. If you hold onto your special guy and he fails, you don't look nearly as bad.
4) Want another Fish pitcher? Penny is the guy, not Burnett or Beckett. Penny is attainable, although he would not be cheap. And it wouldn't cost Kearns or Dunn. He is a guy you could put a package together to get.
5) It has been said many times that Kearns is the better allaround player than Adam Dunn. Dunn has more power and is more patient (not to say that Kearns is a slouch by any means). Kearns is better in EVERY other aspect of the game. Both of these guys will be very good. And another little tidbit, Pena is a RH Dunn minus the patience and with more holes is his swing. Mateo is MAYBE even a little better than Kearns at the plate and not as good in the field. With all four of them in your system, the only reason you don't trade either Kearns or Dunn (higher trade value) rather than Mateo or Pena is because of the PR backlash. They have been talking up this dream OF of Dunn, JR. and Kearns for so long now that if they break it up, they are gonna hear it loud and clear from the fans.
6) Please lay off Ramp. While he does have a little homer in him (he works for the fish for christsakes, he ought to), he has been pretty much dead on in his player evaluation in general. Nothing too out there (other than maybe the Larson at SS thing) Having another knowledgable baseball fan, especially one with a little different perspective, is IMO very interesting.
7) Sorry for the length of this. Maybe I shoulda chimed in on part of this during the first 3 pages
Kearns- 3-3, HR, 2BB
Dunn- 0-5, 5 K's
Dunn seems like a guy who doesn't have a plan at the plate. He is very patient but that's a bad thing. If he doesn't get a pitch the right speed and location, he takes it, he doesn't adjust. He also looks like a guy with no guts. Last night, he goes up against one of the premier pitchers in the league and strikes out every time, and in late clutch situations, he more often than not fails to make contact. You guys ought to try to be more open-minded. You love Dunn, as you should, but there is no way he would be an 'untouchable.' I would be fine letting Kearns have the spotlight and letting Dunn go for a pitcher.
Scott Dunn?Dunn seems like a guy who doesn't have a plan at the plate.
Try all you must, but using last night as your example is ridiculous.
Especially considering who was on the mound.
the guy has a.900 + OPS for the season
A lifetime .400 + OPS and he's averaged an extra base hit every 7.7 AB.
Yet he has no clue at all eh?
Please stop putting words in my mouth. I didn't say he had no clue, I said he had no plan. Geez.
No plan... OK.
There have been 132 "seasons" with a player getting over 110 BB under the age of 30.
They all had a "plan"
getting on base.
I put Dunn in that group, and it's a fine list of ballplayers.
Code:1 Babe Ruth 1923 170 170 T2 Ted Williams 1947 162 162 T2 Ted Williams 1949 162 162 4 Ted Williams 1946 156 156 5 Eddie Yost 1956 151 151 6 Babe Ruth 1920 150 150 T7 Eddie Stanky 1945 148 148 T7 Jimmy Wynn 1969 148 148 9 Mickey Mantle 1957 146 146 T10 Ted Williams 1942 145 145 T10 Ted Williams 1941 145 145 T10 Babe Ruth 1921 145 145 T13 Babe Ruth 1924 142 142 T13 Gary Sheffield 1996 142 142 15 Eddie Yost 1950 141 141 16 Frank Thomas 1991 138 138 T17 Jason Giambi 2000 137 137 T17 Ralph Kiner 1951 137 137 T17 Eddie Stanky 1946 137 137 T20 Ferris Fain 1949 136 136 T20 Frank Thomas 1995 136 136 22 Jeff Bagwell 1996 135 135 23 Ferris Fain 1950 133 133 24 Eddie Yost 1954 131 131 T25 Eddie Yost 1952 129 129 T25 Jason Giambi 2001 129 129 T25 Lenny Dykstra 1993 129 129 T25 Mickey Mantle 1958 129 129 T29 Max Bishop 1929 128 128 T29 Max Bishop 1930 128 128 T29 Carl Yastrzemski 1970 128 128 T32 Jeff Bagwell 1997 127 127 T32 Jim Thome 1999 127 127 T32 Barry Bonds 1992 127 127 T35 Eddie Yost 1951 126 126 T35 Mickey Mantle 1961 126 126 T35 Ted Williams 1948 126 126 T35 Chipper Jones 1999 126 126 T35 Barry Bonds 1993 126 126 T35 Rickey Henderson 1989 126 126 T35 Darrell Evans 1974 126 126 T42 Wade Boggs 1988 125 125 T42 Gene Tenace 1977 125 125 T42 Richie Ashburn 1954 125 125 T42 John Olerud 1999 125 125 T46 Norm Cash 1961 124 124 T46 Darrell Evans 1973 124 124 T48 Eddie Yost 1953 123 123 T48 Jim Thome 1996 123 123 T48 Carlos Delgado 2000 123 123 T48 Ken Singleton 1973 123 123 T52 Lou Gehrig 1929 122 122 T52 John Mayberry 1973 122 122 T52 Luke Appling 1935 122 122 T52 Ralph Kiner 1950 122 122 T52 Frank Thomas 1992 122 122 T52 Mickey Mantle 1962 122 122 T58 Gary Sheffield 1997 121 121 T58 Darrell Porter 1979 121 121 T58 Roy Cullenbine 1941 121 121 T58 Von Hayes 1987 121 121 T62 Jim Thome 1997 120 120 T62 Barry Bonds 1995 120 120 T62 Joe Morgan 1974 120 120 T62 Mike Schmidt 1979 120 120 T66 Jimmie Foxx 1938 119 119 T66 Eddie Collins 1915 119 119 T66 Hank Greenberg 1938 119 119 T66 John Mayberry 1975 119 119 T66 Willie Randolph 1980 119 119 T66 Elmer Valo 1949 119 119 T66 Fred McGriff 1989 119 119 T66 Elbie Fletcher 1940 119 119 T66 Carl Yastrzemski 1968 119 119 T66 Earl Torgeson 1950 119 119 T76 Harlond Clift 1938 118 118 T76 Elbie Fletcher 1941 118 118 T76 Ty Cobb 1915 118 118 T76 Jim Thome 2000 118 118 T76 Ken Singleton 1975 118 118 T76 Donie Bush 1915 118 118 T76 Sal Bando 1970 118 118 T76 Arky Vaughan 1936 118 118 T76 Mel Ott 1938 118 118 T76 Burt Shotton 1915 118 118 T86 Rickey Henderson 1980 117 117 T86 Jeff Burroughs 1978 117 117 T86 Ralph Kiner 1949 117 117 T86 Lyn Lary 1936 117 117 T86 Donie Bush 1912 117 117 T86 Lou Gehrig 1931 117 117 T92 Jimmie Foxx 1932 116 116 T92 Max Bishop 1926 116 116 T92 Pee Wee Reese 1949 116 116 T92 Rickey Henderson 1982 116 116 T92 Dolph Camilli 1936 116 116 T97 Harlond Clift 1936 115 115 T97 Roy Thomas 1900 115 115 T97 Joe Morgan 1972 115 115 T100 Reggie Jackson 1969 114 114 T100 Jimmie Foxx 1935 114 114 T100 John Olerud 1993 114 114 T100 Charlie Keller 1942 114 114 T100 Brian Giles 2000 114 114 T105 Ferris Fain 1948 113 113 T105 Mel Ott 1929 113 113 T105 Charlie Keller 1946 113 113 T105 Mickey Mantle 1955 113 113 T105 Harlond Clift 1941 113 113 T105 Eddie Mathews 1954 113 113 T105 Rocky Colavito 1961 113 113 T112 Mickey Mantle 1956 112 112 T112 Frank Thomas 1993 112 112 T112 Dwight Evans 1982 112 112 T112 Ralph Kiner 1948 112 112 T112 Troy Glaus 2000 112 112 T112 Donie Bush 1914 112 112 T112 Rusty Staub 1970 112 112 T119 Mel Ott 1936 111 111 T119 Harlond Clift 1939 111 111 T119 Jim Thome 2001 111 111 T119 Mike Hargrove 1980 111 111 T119 Elbie Fletcher 1946 111 111 T119 Joe Morgan 1973 111 111 T119 Jimmie Foxx 1934 111 111 T119 Mickey Mantle 1960 111 111 T119 Sal Bando 1969 111 111 T119 Eddie Mathews 1960 111 111 T119 Carlos Delgado 2001 111 111 T130 Rusty Staub 1969 110 110 T130 Gene Tenace 1974 110 110 T130 Frank Thomas 1998 110 110 T130 Ralph Kiner 1952 110 110 T130 Mark McGwire 1990 110 110 T130 Norm Siebern 1962 110 110 T130 Joe Morgan 1969 110 110
You know what? Maybe Dunn did look like he had no clue at the plate. So what!!! The guy is mired in one of the worst slumps of his very short career and going up against the PREMIER left handed pitcher in the game. And you're surprised he had no clue? I'm not.Originally posted by fielder's choice
Kearns- 3-3, HR, 2BB
Dunn- 0-5, 5 K's
Dunn seems like a guy who doesn't have a plan at the plate. He is very patient but that's a bad thing. If he doesn't get a pitch the right speed and location, he takes it, he doesn't adjust. He also looks like a guy with no guts. Last night, he goes up against one of the premier pitchers in the league and strikes out every time, and in late clutch situations, he more often than not fails to make contact. You guys ought to try to be more open-minded. You love Dunn, as you should, but there is no way he would be an 'untouchable.' I would be fine letting Kearns have the spotlight and letting Dunn go for a pitcher.
I didn't see the game, but I am guessing that probably 2-3 of the 5 strikeouts were looking. Seems to be Dunn's MO. That will change as he matures and defines his approach a little and he earns some respect from the umps. Not that this has anything to do with anything.
hey fielders choice:
adam dunn for homer bush?
bush had a base hit last night
Dunn IS a fine ballplayer but I would not hate it if we traded him for pitching, and Buckeye, FWIW, one of the called strike threes was quite outside.
Pitchers have figured out how to get him out and he needs to make an adjustment. And ramp: does homer bush pitch?
no, but im sure he'd fit right in your bullpen [low-blow...lol]Originally posted by fielder's choice
And ramp: does homer bush pitch?
fine julian tavarez for adam dunn
in all seriousness, it would be a crime to trade either dunn or kearns for anything....
A decade from now.....Adam Dunn will be a perennial All-Star and MVP Candiate posting Hall of Fame numbers.
The same decade from now....
The Marlins will be without A.J. Burnett, where ever they trade him, still wondering what they let go. He is a #1 or #2 starter over the period, averaging 18 wins per season, with an ERA under 3.00, posting in the top 5 in K's every year for the major leagues.
Thats the differance in the 2 players.
Besides the obvious pitcher vs position player delima.
yawnOriginally posted by J-Rod
The Marlins will be without A.J. Burnett, where ever they trade him, still wondering what they let go. He is a #1 or #2 starter over the period, averaging 18 wins per season, with an ERA under 3.00, posting in the top 5 in K's every year for the major leagues.
yea because aj will be traded who said dunn wont..and if there is some sort of revenue sharing, i guaran-damn-tee you aj stays a marlin
i think aj is #1 right now
I would be SHOCKED in the next five years if Burnett had yet to elevate himself into the upper tier of pitchers in all of baseball. He is a #1 without question provided he works out his occasional control problems. If the Marlins had any sort of team around him he could win 20 games without question.
And they obviously think that as well, as I have read in numerous publications that the Marlins think 1) Burnett is the best pitcher on the staff - even better than Beckett and 2) He is as untouchable as they come.
Although I would never trade Dunn in a million years, if someone offered me a bona fide #1 who could anchor the staff, pitch 200+ IP per year, and win 20 games for a package centering on a corner outfielder, I would have to think about it.
We have shown for the last three years that pitching wins it.
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