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Thread: Offseason trade to legitamize Reds.

  1. #91
    ShadezNation ramp101's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Red LvJ
    The amount of time a guy has been here doesn't increase, nor decrease a guys brain power. Heh.


    Take you, for an example.
    woo woo woo, you know it

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  3. #92
    Gus
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    Soriano has too much power to stay at the lead off spot any longer than another year or two, I think most teams would eventually like to see him as a #3 or #4 hitter.

  4. #93
    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
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    Soriano's OBP isn't that hot -- .329 as of tonight -- because he has one of the lowest walk rates in the majors. His power makes him a very valuable offensive player, especially considering his position, but his low OBP makes him better suited to hit in the middle of the order rather than leading off.

  5. #94
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    Man, there is a lot of crap in this thread

    1) Soriano is not a good leadoff hitter. He has a .329 OBP. He will likely never be a good leadoff hitter because he is a freak like vlad who can swing and hit just about any pitch and will. With his power and low OBP, you are looking at an ideal 4 or 5 hitter. Course, getting past the stereotype of where you bat a speedy 2B is tough there. I would say the 3 best leadoff hitters in the game are probably Ichiro Suzuki, Luis Castillo and Shannon Stewart, in that order.

    2) For those trying to put up an offer comparable to the Colon offer, the only guy that really could be considered comparable to Phillips at the time of that trade was Austin Kearns. Now, Austin has moved ahead of Phillips some in trade value because he is producing NOW at the major league level. But please stop trying to say that WilyMo and Scott Dunn and Howington or whatever is comparable to the deal CLE got for Colon. Because I have not seen anyone come anywhere close in this thread. The closest we could have come to what Montreal offered at the time would have been something like Casey, Kearns, Espinosa, Howington. Anybody want to deal those four in exchange for Colon? How about for Burnett? I sure as heck wouldn't.

    3) Back to Burnett. The only guy that the Marlins might trade Burnett (or Beckett) for straight up on our roster is Adam Dunn. And I think that is absolutely right on their side. I also don't think I would trade Adam Dunn for either of them. All three of the guys we are talking about have a very good opportunity to be special players. And you don't trade special players, even for each other. Because what happens when one guy becomes special and the other doesn't? Somebody looks bad. If you hold onto your special guy and he fails, you don't look nearly as bad.

    4) Want another Fish pitcher? Penny is the guy, not Burnett or Beckett. Penny is attainable, although he would not be cheap. And it wouldn't cost Kearns or Dunn. He is a guy you could put a package together to get.

    5) It has been said many times that Kearns is the better allaround player than Adam Dunn. Dunn has more power and is more patient (not to say that Kearns is a slouch by any means). Kearns is better in EVERY other aspect of the game. Both of these guys will be very good. And another little tidbit, Pena is a RH Dunn minus the patience and with more holes is his swing. Mateo is MAYBE even a little better than Kearns at the plate and not as good in the field. With all four of them in your system, the only reason you don't trade either Kearns or Dunn (higher trade value) rather than Mateo or Pena is because of the PR backlash. They have been talking up this dream OF of Dunn, JR. and Kearns for so long now that if they break it up, they are gonna hear it loud and clear from the fans.

    6) Please lay off Ramp. While he does have a little homer in him (he works for the fish for christsakes, he ought to), he has been pretty much dead on in his player evaluation in general. Nothing too out there (other than maybe the Larson at SS thing ) Having another knowledgable baseball fan, especially one with a little different perspective, is IMO very interesting.

    7) Sorry for the length of this. Maybe I shoulda chimed in on part of this during the first 3 pages

  6. #95
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    Last night...

    Kearns- 3-3, HR, 2BB
    Dunn- 0-5, 5 K's

    Dunn seems like a guy who doesn't have a plan at the plate. He is very patient but that's a bad thing. If he doesn't get a pitch the right speed and location, he takes it, he doesn't adjust. He also looks like a guy with no guts. Last night, he goes up against one of the premier pitchers in the league and strikes out every time, and in late clutch situations, he more often than not fails to make contact. You guys ought to try to be more open-minded. You love Dunn, as you should, but there is no way he would be an 'untouchable.' I would be fine letting Kearns have the spotlight and letting Dunn go for a pitcher.

  7. #96
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Dunn seems like a guy who doesn't have a plan at the plate.
    Scott Dunn?

    Try all you must, but using last night as your example is ridiculous.

    Especially considering who was on the mound.

    the guy has a.900 + OPS for the season

    A lifetime .400 + OPS and he's averaged an extra base hit every 7.7 AB.

    Yet he has no clue at all eh?


  8. #97
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    Please stop putting words in my mouth. I didn't say he had no clue, I said he had no plan. Geez.

  9. #98
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    No plan... OK.

    There have been 132 "seasons" with a player getting over 110 BB under the age of 30.

    They all had a "plan"

    getting on base.

    I put Dunn in that group, and it's a fine list of ballplayers.

    Code:
    1    Babe Ruth                1923      170      170   
    T2   Ted Williams             1947      162      162   
    T2   Ted Williams             1949      162      162   
    4    Ted Williams             1946      156      156   
    5    Eddie Yost               1956      151      151   
    6    Babe Ruth                1920      150      150   
    T7   Eddie Stanky             1945      148      148   
    T7   Jimmy Wynn               1969      148      148   
    9    Mickey Mantle            1957      146      146   
    T10  Ted Williams             1942      145      145   
    T10  Ted Williams             1941      145      145   
    T10  Babe Ruth                1921      145      145   
    T13  Babe Ruth                1924      142      142   
    T13  Gary Sheffield           1996      142      142   
    15   Eddie Yost               1950      141      141   
    16   Frank Thomas             1991      138      138   
    T17  Jason Giambi             2000      137      137   
    T17  Ralph Kiner              1951      137      137   
    T17  Eddie Stanky             1946      137      137   
    T20  Ferris Fain              1949      136      136   
    T20  Frank Thomas             1995      136      136   
    22   Jeff Bagwell             1996      135      135   
    23   Ferris Fain              1950      133      133   
    24   Eddie Yost               1954      131      131   
    T25  Eddie Yost               1952      129      129   
    T25  Jason Giambi             2001      129      129   
    T25  Lenny Dykstra            1993      129      129   
    T25  Mickey Mantle            1958      129      129   
    T29  Max Bishop               1929      128      128   
    T29  Max Bishop               1930      128      128   
    T29  Carl Yastrzemski         1970      128      128   
    T32  Jeff Bagwell             1997      127      127   
    T32  Jim Thome                1999      127      127   
    T32  Barry Bonds              1992      127      127   
    T35  Eddie Yost               1951      126      126   
    T35  Mickey Mantle            1961      126      126   
    T35  Ted Williams             1948      126      126   
    T35  Chipper Jones            1999      126      126   
    T35  Barry Bonds              1993      126      126   
    T35  Rickey Henderson         1989      126      126   
    T35  Darrell Evans            1974      126      126   
    T42  Wade Boggs               1988      125      125   
    T42  Gene Tenace              1977      125      125   
    T42  Richie Ashburn           1954      125      125   
    T42  John Olerud              1999      125      125   
    T46  Norm Cash                1961      124      124   
    T46  Darrell Evans            1973      124      124   
    T48  Eddie Yost               1953      123      123   
    T48  Jim Thome                1996      123      123   
    T48  Carlos Delgado           2000      123      123   
    T48  Ken Singleton            1973      123      123   
    T52  Lou Gehrig               1929      122      122   
    T52  John Mayberry            1973      122      122   
    T52  Luke Appling             1935      122      122   
    T52  Ralph Kiner              1950      122      122   
    T52  Frank Thomas             1992      122      122   
    T52  Mickey Mantle            1962      122      122   
    T58  Gary Sheffield           1997      121      121   
    T58  Darrell Porter           1979      121      121   
    T58  Roy Cullenbine           1941      121      121   
    T58  Von Hayes                1987      121      121   
    T62  Jim Thome                1997      120      120   
    T62  Barry Bonds              1995      120      120   
    T62  Joe Morgan               1974      120      120   
    T62  Mike Schmidt             1979      120      120   
    T66  Jimmie Foxx              1938      119      119   
    T66  Eddie Collins            1915      119      119   
    T66  Hank Greenberg           1938      119      119   
    T66  John Mayberry            1975      119      119   
    T66  Willie Randolph          1980      119      119   
    T66  Elmer Valo               1949      119      119   
    T66  Fred McGriff             1989      119      119   
    T66  Elbie Fletcher           1940      119      119   
    T66  Carl Yastrzemski         1968      119      119   
    T66  Earl Torgeson            1950      119      119   
    T76  Harlond Clift            1938      118      118   
    T76  Elbie Fletcher           1941      118      118   
    T76  Ty Cobb                  1915      118      118   
    T76  Jim Thome                2000      118      118   
    T76  Ken Singleton            1975      118      118   
    T76  Donie Bush               1915      118      118   
    T76  Sal Bando                1970      118      118   
    T76  Arky Vaughan             1936      118      118   
    T76  Mel Ott                  1938      118      118   
    T76  Burt Shotton             1915      118      118   
    T86  Rickey Henderson         1980      117      117   
    T86  Jeff Burroughs           1978      117      117   
    T86  Ralph Kiner              1949      117      117   
    T86  Lyn Lary                 1936      117      117   
    T86  Donie Bush               1912      117      117   
    T86  Lou Gehrig               1931      117      117   
    T92  Jimmie Foxx              1932      116      116   
    T92  Max Bishop               1926      116      116   
    T92  Pee Wee Reese            1949      116      116   
    T92  Rickey Henderson         1982      116      116   
    T92  Dolph Camilli            1936      116      116   
    T97  Harlond Clift            1936      115      115   
    T97  Roy Thomas               1900      115      115   
    T97  Joe Morgan               1972      115      115   
    T100 Reggie Jackson           1969      114      114   
    T100 Jimmie Foxx              1935      114      114   
    T100 John Olerud              1993      114      114   
    T100 Charlie Keller           1942      114      114   
    T100 Brian Giles              2000      114      114   
    T105 Ferris Fain              1948      113      113   
    T105 Mel Ott                  1929      113      113   
    T105 Charlie Keller           1946      113      113   
    T105 Mickey Mantle            1955      113      113   
    T105 Harlond Clift            1941      113      113   
    T105 Eddie Mathews            1954      113      113   
    T105 Rocky Colavito           1961      113      113   
    T112 Mickey Mantle            1956      112      112   
    T112 Frank Thomas             1993      112      112   
    T112 Dwight Evans             1982      112      112   
    T112 Ralph Kiner              1948      112      112   
    T112 Troy Glaus               2000      112      112   
    T112 Donie Bush               1914      112      112   
    T112 Rusty Staub              1970      112      112   
    T119 Mel Ott                  1936      111      111   
    T119 Harlond Clift            1939      111      111   
    T119 Jim Thome                2001      111      111   
    T119 Mike Hargrove            1980      111      111   
    T119 Elbie Fletcher           1946      111      111   
    T119 Joe Morgan               1973      111      111   
    T119 Jimmie Foxx              1934      111      111   
    T119 Mickey Mantle            1960      111      111   
    T119 Sal Bando                1969      111      111   
    T119 Eddie Mathews            1960      111      111   
    T119 Carlos Delgado           2001      111      111   
    T130 Rusty Staub              1969      110      110   
    T130 Gene Tenace              1974      110      110   
    T130 Frank Thomas             1998      110      110   
    T130 Ralph Kiner              1952      110      110   
    T130 Mark McGwire             1990      110      110   
    T130 Norm Siebern             1962      110      110   
    T130 Joe Morgan               1969      110      110    

  10. #99
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    Re: Last night...

    Originally posted by fielder's choice
    Kearns- 3-3, HR, 2BB
    Dunn- 0-5, 5 K's

    Dunn seems like a guy who doesn't have a plan at the plate. He is very patient but that's a bad thing. If he doesn't get a pitch the right speed and location, he takes it, he doesn't adjust. He also looks like a guy with no guts. Last night, he goes up against one of the premier pitchers in the league and strikes out every time, and in late clutch situations, he more often than not fails to make contact. You guys ought to try to be more open-minded. You love Dunn, as you should, but there is no way he would be an 'untouchable.' I would be fine letting Kearns have the spotlight and letting Dunn go for a pitcher.
    You know what? Maybe Dunn did look like he had no clue at the plate. So what!!! The guy is mired in one of the worst slumps of his very short career and going up against the PREMIER left handed pitcher in the game. And you're surprised he had no clue? I'm not.

    I didn't see the game, but I am guessing that probably 2-3 of the 5 strikeouts were looking. Seems to be Dunn's MO. That will change as he matures and defines his approach a little and he earns some respect from the umps. Not that this has anything to do with anything.

  11. #100
    ShadezNation ramp101's Avatar
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    hey fielders choice:

    adam dunn for homer bush?

    bush had a base hit last night
    woo woo woo, you know it

  12. #101
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    Dunn IS a fine ballplayer but I would not hate it if we traded him for pitching, and Buckeye, FWIW, one of the called strike threes was quite outside.
    Pitchers have figured out how to get him out and he needs to make an adjustment. And ramp: does homer bush pitch?

  13. #102
    ShadezNation ramp101's Avatar
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    Originally posted by fielder's choice
    And ramp: does homer bush pitch?
    no, but im sure he'd fit right in your bullpen [low-blow...lol]

    fine julian tavarez for adam dunn

    in all seriousness, it would be a crime to trade either dunn or kearns for anything....
    woo woo woo, you know it

  14. #103
    J-Rod
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    Lets put this to rest.

    A decade from now.....Adam Dunn will be a perennial All-Star and MVP Candiate posting Hall of Fame numbers.


    The same decade from now....

    The Marlins will be without A.J. Burnett, where ever they trade him, still wondering what they let go. He is a #1 or #2 starter over the period, averaging 18 wins per season, with an ERA under 3.00, posting in the top 5 in K's every year for the major leagues.


    Thats the differance in the 2 players.

    Besides the obvious pitcher vs position player delima.

  15. #104
    ShadezNation ramp101's Avatar
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    Re: Lets put this to rest.

    Originally posted by J-Rod


    The Marlins will be without A.J. Burnett, where ever they trade him, still wondering what they let go. He is a #1 or #2 starter over the period, averaging 18 wins per season, with an ERA under 3.00, posting in the top 5 in K's every year for the major leagues.
    yawn

    yea because aj will be traded who said dunn wont..and if there is some sort of revenue sharing, i guaran-damn-tee you aj stays a marlin

    i think aj is #1 right now
    woo woo woo, you know it

  16. #105
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    I would be SHOCKED in the next five years if Burnett had yet to elevate himself into the upper tier of pitchers in all of baseball. He is a #1 without question provided he works out his occasional control problems. If the Marlins had any sort of team around him he could win 20 games without question.

    And they obviously think that as well, as I have read in numerous publications that the Marlins think 1) Burnett is the best pitcher on the staff - even better than Beckett and 2) He is as untouchable as they come.

    Although I would never trade Dunn in a million years, if someone offered me a bona fide #1 who could anchor the staff, pitch 200+ IP per year, and win 20 games for a package centering on a corner outfielder, I would have to think about it.

    We have shown for the last three years that pitching wins it.


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