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Thread: "Ever hear of David Clyde"-RFS62

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    Member Spitball's Avatar
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    "Ever hear of David Clyde"-RFS62

    Ever hear of David Clyde?
    Wow! RFS62 asked this question on the Homer Bailey thread and it got me thinking about all the rushed prospects and busts we've see through the years. (I started to post on that thread but feared that might be highjacking)
    Who all have we seen, besides Clyde, ruined by being rushed too soon? I came up with these guys but know there are more.

    Rushed and ruined
    Steve Dunning
    Floyd Bannister
    Ben McDonald
    Paul Wilson
    Bill Pulsipher
    Rick Ankiel
    Steve Avery
    Mark Prior

    Also, have there been guys who were rushed and successful?

    Rushed and successful
    Catfish Hunter
    Dwight Gooden
    Gary Nolan
    Don Gullett
    "I am your child from the future. I'm sorry I didn't tell you this earlier." - Dylan Easton

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    Re: "Ever hear of David Clyde"-RFS62

    Mike Morgan

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    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: "Ever hear of David Clyde"-RFS62

    Add Vida Blue to the rushed and successful list..
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

    http://dalmady.blogspot.com

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    Re: "Ever hear of David Clyde"-RFS62

    You can't prove that any of these pitchers were going to make it in the bigs. Just because people felt like they were rushed doesn't mean that ruined them. They may have never made it in the bigs for what ever reason or they were headed for arm problems at some point and time but rushing them didn't cause it. Now poor management (too many pitches in a game which the Cubs are known for) over coaching (tinkering with deliveries and not allowing the arm to build strength for each change, which the Reds are known for. Most kids have thrown the same way for years and have build up all the muscles in that area to repeat the same throwing action and then some has them change and now they are throwing 90 plus mph using weaker muscles) Will cause kids to break down. Wagner is a good example of someone who can do will in the lower minor, college and once around the league and then struggle just because his fastball is avg and his other pitches are out of the strike zone where young kids will chase. But once the Bigleaguers figure out that they are balls they will just sit on that fastball. He reminds me of Rob Dibble but Dibbs have a better fastball, but when the league figured out that his slider forkball can't remember which one he throw was almost always a ball and laid off of it he got hit hard.

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    Re: "Ever hear of David Clyde"-RFS62

    Quote Originally Posted by Redmachine2003
    You can't prove that any of these pitchers were going to make it in the bigs. Just because people felt like they were rushed doesn't mean that ruined them. They may have never made it in the bigs for what ever reason or they were headed for arm problems at some point and time but rushing them didn't cause it. Now poor management (too many pitches in a game which the Cubs are known for) over coaching (tinkering with deliveries and not allowing the arm to build strength for each change, which the Reds are known for. Most kids have thrown the same way for years and have build up all the muscles in that area to repeat the same throwing action and then some has them change and now they are throwing 90 plus mph using weaker muscles) Will cause kids to break down. Wagner is a good example of someone who can do will in the lower minor, college and once around the league and then struggle just because his fastball is avg and his other pitches are out of the strike zone where young kids will chase. But once the Bigleaguers figure out that they are balls they will just sit on that fastball. He reminds me of Rob Dibble but Dibbs have a better fastball, but when the league figured out that his slider forkball can't remember which one he throw was almost always a ball and laid off of it he got hit hard.
    You're most likely right on Wagner because he can't control the slider. But Dibble, when right, got plenty of K's by painting the outside corner with an unhittable slider. Until injury robbed him of his command, he threw that pitch for strikes aplenty.

    Oh, and if we've got a "rushed and eventually successful" list, we can add Jose Rijo to it.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

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    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: "Ever hear of David Clyde"-RFS62

    I think that it is very hard for most kids to take on Major League Baseball at a very young age as a pitcher. So many more pitches than they have ever thrown before (this is what puts real stress on the arm and really tests the mechanics that they have developed, proving them good or bad), and the main difference, even from the minor leagues, being, so many pitches thrown under pressure and duress. It takes a very special individual with a fundamentally sound and repeatable delivery, a really strong arm and legs (the latter maybe even more important) and a lot of composure at a very young age to handle all the stress that comes with playing at the very highest level. If you have a great fastball, you can get by for a while, but you really have to develop a very good second pitch and that is very hard to do at the pinnacle. The second pitch will only get you by for so long, so you better have a third in your repertoire.

    I hope Bailey has the makeup (all things mentioned above plus a good work ethic) to be a good major leaguer, and that his pitching mechanics are such that he doesn't blow his arm away in the minors. The Reds surely need someone that they draft to step up and be a pitching star.
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    Re: "Ever hear of David Clyde"-RFS62

    Mark Fidrych 24 complete games at age 21

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    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: "Ever hear of David Clyde"-RFS62

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    Mark Fidrych 24 complete games at age 21

    The Bird may be my favorite pitcher of all time.

    Anyone who hasn't seen the ESPN classic replays of his incredible run with the Tigers is really missing something.

    It broke my heart when he blew up his arm.

    One of, if not the greatest genuine character in baseball history.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    ~ Mark Twain

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    Re: "Ever hear of David Clyde"-RFS62

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62
    The Bird may be my favorite pitcher of all time.

    Anyone who hasn't seen the ESPN classic replays of his incredible run with the Tigers is really missing something.

    It broke my heart when he blew up his arm.

    One of, if not the greatest genuine character in baseball history.
    He's probably the reason I'm a baseball fan.
    Get your nunchucks and the keys to your dad's car. I know where we can get a gun

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    Re: "Ever hear of David Clyde"-RFS62

    I truly believe the "rushed him too fast" theory is a cop-out. A convinient excuse to place on a young player whenever they fail to live up to expectations. Has a player EVER been harmed by being "rushed" to the majors? Well, of course I am quite sure it has happened. But there is simply no way to quantify a who's-who on that list.

    Pitching is a more "sensative" area than playing an everyday position, so it does seem to make sense to bring along young players more cautiously, however, if a guy is dominating on the lower levels and shows legitimate signs of being able to help the big league squad, I see no harm in giving him a look as long as there isn't some sort of physical dilemma (coming off surgery, etc..).

    In Homer's case, I would NOT bring him up yet. But not because I'm afraid of the psychological damage that could be done-- I'd like to see him keep this up on the AA level for awhile and then see how he handles AAA bats. If by the end of the year, he's still cruising, then I see no harm in making him a September call-up.

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    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: "Ever hear of David Clyde"-RFS62

    Quote Originally Posted by Edskin
    Pitching is a more "sensative" area than playing an everyday position, so it does seem to make sense to bring along young players more cautiously, however, if a guy is dominating on the lower levels and shows legitimate signs of being able to help the big league squad, I see no harm in giving him a look as long as there isn't some sort of physical dilemma (coming off surgery, etc..).

    In Homer's case, I would NOT bring him up yet. But not because I'm afraid of the psychological damage that could be done-- I'd like to see him keep this up on the AA level for awhile and then see how he handles AAA bats. If by the end of the year, he's still cruising, then I see no harm in making him a September call-up.

    It's not as much "what he's doing" in the minors as it is "how is he doing it?"

    What Homer is getting hitters out with in the minors, straight gas, will get him killed in the bigs if it's all he brings with him.

    The stats are misleading at this point. It takes expert observation of "how" to add to the "what" to make a decision about when he arrives. And I'm in total agreement with the expert analysis I heard Krivsky give in this regard.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    ~ Mark Twain

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    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: "Ever hear of David Clyde"-RFS62

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro
    He's probably the reason I'm a baseball fan.

    Yeah, it was a beautiful thing. Such a shooting star, flaming out in a brilliant crescendo.

    One of my biggest interests in sports is the mental side of performance. I don't talk about it here much, but it fascinates me.

    The Bird was an epic story. The common man placed in extraordinary circumstances. You didn't have to wonder what was going through his head at any time. He was thinking out loud, for all to see and hear.

    I don't think I've ever pulled for an athlete like I pulled for The Bird. He'll always have a special place in my heart.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    ~ Mark Twain

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    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: "Ever hear of David Clyde"-RFS62

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    Mark Fidrych 24 complete games at age 21
    Now you made me cry...

    Fidrych's demise was one of the saddest thing to happen in baseball in the '70s.
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

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    Re: "Ever hear of David Clyde"-RFS62

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62
    The Bird may be my favorite pitcher of all time.

    Anyone who hasn't seen the ESPN classic replays of his incredible run with the Tigers is really missing something.

    It broke my heart when he blew up his arm.

    One of, if not the greatest genuine character in baseball history.
    30 years ago, low K rate might have caught him down the road... it did to Rozema who was arookie that year too... That also was the year that LeFlore led off the AS game, 3rd year in MLB after being in jail and the guy leads off the AS game and the Bird starts it.

    Good year for a bad team.

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    Re: "Ever hear of David Clyde"-RFS62

    Quote Originally Posted by oneupper
    Now you made me cry...

    Fidrych's demise was one of the saddest thing to happen in baseball in the '70s.
    Yep.... on that observation I'll note that the Motor City takes a hit today with the retirment of Stevie Y.


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