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Thread: Alfonso Soriano A Cardinal?

  1. #31
    Member Spitball's Avatar
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    Re: Alfonso Soriano A Cardinal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo
    This trade is highly unlikely to happen. St. Louis prides itself on defense and unless Soriano has recently been touched by the hand of god then defense isn't a strong suit.
    Right, and that is why I think Reggie Sanders or even Jose Guillen (who I believe is in the last year of his contract) make more likely targets for the Cards.

    Look for them to target a David Dellucci or Kevin Mench if they go after a bat at all. Someone who is still reasonably priced and productive.
    Dellucci maybe, but Mench is unlikely unless the Cards are willing to give a really nice return to improve the second place, one game out Rangers.
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  3. #32
    I thought you'd be bigger OldXOhio's Avatar
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    Re: Alfonso Soriano A Cardinal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spitball
    The guy's team is in last place after competing last year and you want me to commend the him for making a good deal? That's like telling the plumber he did a good job wrapping the pipe when it's still leaking. What is Bowden's job? It's to build a winning team. He'll have had Soriano's great bat for half a losing season. I'm not going to judge the trade until I see what return he gets for Soriano.

    A trade can't really be judged until time has tested its value. It's like the Bartolo Colon for Brandon Phillips, Grady Sizemore and Casey Blake trade a few years ago. Colon ended up with twenty wins for the season, but did the Expos make a good trade? They ended up trading Colon to the White Sox for El Duque, Rocky Biddle, and Jeff Leifer. In the long run they got a good half season from Colon but lost three outstanding young players.
    The subject at hand here has been Bowden's acquisition of Soriano...not his performance overall as GM. You want to grade him in that regard or discuss his job in building for the future, start another thread. The trade so far has been one sided in favor of the Nats and as I recall, there aren't prospects in the deal akin to your aformentioned Colon deal. The principals in the deal are Soriano and Wilkerson and enough time has passed to determine that Bowden won that deal hands down. I'm not a big fan of Jimbo's, but you have to give the man his due on this one.
    Originally Posted by nate
    Chapman can be downright pornographic at times.

  4. #33
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    Re: Alfonso Soriano A Cardinal?

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine
    I know don't have very many.

    Please name them.
    Reyes and Wainwright were mentioned. The Cards have a few guys who've been doing well:

    P Mitch Boggs
    P Jaime Garcia
    C Bryan Anderson
    OF Nick Stavinoha
    OF Colby Rasmus

    Stavinoha is the only guy on that list above A ball. Garcia is the best pitcher on that list with terrific numbers down in the Quad Cities. Boggs has posted respectable numbers in the FSL. Anderson makes good contact, but has little power. Rasmus is the best prospect in their system with very good overall numbers and athleticism to match.

    They have a few guys who were rated well in their system by BA last year...but a lot of them have been struggling, injured, or just have not been all that good (SS Tyler Greene, 3B Travis Hanson, P Chris Lambert, OF Cody Haerther, P Nick Webber, P Stuart Pomeranz, P Mark McCormick).

  5. #34
    Member Spitball's Avatar
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    Re: Alfonso Soriano A Cardinal?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldXOhio
    The subject at hand here has been Bowden's acquisition of Soriano...not his performance overall as GM. You want to grade him in that regard or discuss his job in building for the future, start another thread.
    Wait, I'll slow this down for you. I have not been dicussing "his performance overall as GM". I have been discussing what I believe is the requirement for this trade to be graded successful.


    The trade so far has been one sided in favor of the Nats and as I recall, there aren't prospects in the deal akin to your aformentioned Colon deal. The principals in the deal are Soriano and Wilkerson and enough time has passed to determine that Bowden won that deal hands down. I'm not a big fan of Jimbo's, but you have to give the man his due on this one.
    If you want to make this a shallow interpretation, then go ahead. There is more to a trade than just who is putting up the better numbers at the freakin' all-star break.

    Did the Rangers really think Wilkerson would put up numbers comparable to Soriano's? Was that their goal?

    No. A big fat no. They wanted to improve their defense and get out from under Soriano's contract so they could sign Kevin Millewood. The fact that the Rangers are one game out of first place and Wilkerson is their team leader in homeruns and runs scored is a plus. Wilkerson's batting average is down, but his .337 OBP is nearly identical to Soriano's. But, so far here at the all-star break, I will give Bowden a statistical edge in the trade if it makes you happy. Personally, I want to wait to see what return he gets for Soriano. This trade may not have a clear cut winner for years...That's just the way trades are...See Doyle Alexander for John Smoltz.
    Last edited by Spitball; 07-08-2006 at 07:58 PM.
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  6. #35
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Alfonso Soriano A Cardinal?

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD
    You've got to admit though, Jimbo easily won the Soraino trade which he was heavily mocked for in the offseason (Not calling you or anyone out, I don't remember who said what)..

    Wilkerson is only hitting 238/337/456 and Soriano is having an outstanding season.
    That trade did not look good for JimBo when it happened. It really did not look good during ST when he refused to play LF. However, Soriano has hit well, like usual, even in that hitters graveyard. And he has not been a total butcher in the OF. Point for JimBo. But if he cannot turn Soriano into gold, not so good for JimBo.

    And what I said earlier is that JimBo would not know a good young pitcher if he was right in front of him. What I meant by that is that Jocketty could easily pull the wool over JimBo's eyes as far as dealing him pitching prospects. Jocketty could probably pass off a C pitching prospect as an A pitching prospect to JimBo. Look over every trade for young pitching that JimBo has made for both the Reds and the Nats. How many of those young pitchers that he has acquired or drafted have amounted to anything? My memory may be failing but I sure cannot remember a single one.
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  7. #36
    I thought you'd be bigger OldXOhio's Avatar
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    Re: Alfonso Soriano A Cardinal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spitball
    The guy's team is in last place after competing last year and you want me to commend the him for making a good deal? That's like telling the plumber he did a good job wrapping the pipe when it's still leaking. What is Bowden's job? It's to build a winning team.
    Perhaps you can slow things down for yourself Spit b/c the above statement is in fact a commentary on Bowden's overall performance as the GM, not just regarding the Soriano trade. Again, that really wasn't what we were discussing, but take it there if you like, that's cool.
    Last edited by OldXOhio; 07-08-2006 at 08:59 PM.
    Originally Posted by nate
    Chapman can be downright pornographic at times.

  8. #37
    Member Phhhl's Avatar
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    Re: Alfonso Soriano A Cardinal?

    What Soriano is doing doesn't surprise me. It didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that he would probably out-produce Wilkerson. I don't think Bowden deserves much credit for that.

    What he does with him now is what counts. St. Louis has very little of anything to offer, but that didn't stop the Braves from giving them a couple of the best pitchers in their system for a lame duck outfielder a few years ago. Teams seem to lose their minds dealing with the Cards, so who knows... I do doubt it, though.

  9. #38
    I thought you'd be bigger OldXOhio's Avatar
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    Re: Alfonso Soriano A Cardinal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Santo Alcala
    What Soriano is doing doesn't surprise me. It didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that he would probably out-produce Wilkerson. I don't think Bowden deserves much credit for that.
    On pace for 50 bombs doesn't surprise you...in that park....with that lineup?
    Originally Posted by nate
    Chapman can be downright pornographic at times.

  10. #39
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Alfonso Soriano A Cardinal?

    Colby Rasmus is a true five-tooler. I assume the Cardinals can have anything they want from JimBo for that kid.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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  11. #40
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Alfonso Soriano A Cardinal?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldXOhio
    On pace for 50 bombs doesn't surprise you...in that park....with that lineup?
    Agreed. I think I saw somewhere that he is hitting better at home than on the road. Lots of people thought his numbers would drop off in RFK. If he can hit there, he can hit anywhere.
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  12. #41
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    Re: Alfonso Soriano A Cardinal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Outshined_One
    Reyes and Wainwright were mentioned. The Cards have a few guys who've been doing well:

    P Mitch Boggs
    P Jaime Garcia
    C Bryan Anderson
    OF Nick Stavinoha
    OF Colby Rasmus

    Stavinoha is the only guy on that list above A ball. Garcia is the best pitcher on that list with terrific numbers down in the Quad Cities. Boggs has posted respectable numbers in the FSL. Anderson makes good contact, but has little power. Rasmus is the best prospect in their system with very good overall numbers and athleticism to match.

    They have a few guys who were rated well in their system by BA last year...but a lot of them have been struggling, injured, or just have not been all that good (SS Tyler Greene, 3B Travis Hanson, P Chris Lambert, OF Cody Haerther, P Nick Webber, P Stuart Pomeranz, P Mark McCormick).
    Matty said the Cards had many pitching prospects. That's not true at all.

    Boggs is 22 years old and has a 1.35 WHIP in a pitcher's league. Unimpressive. And Garcia has been hit pretty hard since moving up to High-A. The Cards system is weak, even weaker than the Reds.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

  13. #42
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Alfonso Soriano A Cardinal?

    By the way, Texas dumped Soriano's salary, his glove at second, and is in second place and one game out. I believe the Wilkerson return was secondary to their motives.
    Texas would be in 1st place with Soriano instead of Kinsler/DeRosa at 2B. That's a call I'm willing to make.

    While I agree that Jimbo overpaid for Soriano at the time of the trade, I have to say it turned out to be a huge win for him. Huge.

    I think it's vindictive to disparage the outcome of the deal and say the only thing that matters is what Jimbo gets in return when he trades Soriano.

    Jimbo made a good move. He made some good moves when he was running the Reds. Accept it and move on.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  14. #43
    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: Alfonso Soriano A Cardinal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool
    Texas would be in 1st place with Soriano instead of Kinsler/DeRosa at 2B. That's a call I'm willing to make.
    I'm guessing they won't answer......

    OPS for the 3 guys in question:

    Kinser .943
    Soriano .886
    Derosa .884

    Considering Soriano's defense and high price tag, I'm not sure why Texas would have any interest.

    Got any pitching for them???

  15. #44
    GO XAVIER! toledodan's Avatar
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    Re: Alfonso Soriano A Cardinal?

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfboy
    If Ankiel weren't injured, they could present him as the only 6-tool outfielder in the minors. Jimbo would probably trade half the team for him.

    that is one of the funniest things i've read on here in a long time and so TRUE!

    there's nothing like bowling a 300 game! 13 now and retired.


    Ricky henderson has a higher OBP than C. patterson and he's retired. C. Trent 6-14-2008

  16. #45
    Member Spitball's Avatar
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    Re: Alfonso Soriano A Cardinal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool
    Texas would be in 1st place with Soriano instead of Kinsler/DeRosa at 2B. That's a call I'm willing to make.
    Yep, and Al Gore invented the internet.

    You can say it, but that doesn't make it true. You could say they'd be in first place if they'd had Alex Rodriguez playing shortstop instead of Michael Young, but hat would be ignoring the bigger picture. God gave us brain capacity beyond simple ground level analysis.

    The Rangers knew they'd have more trouble moving Soriano over the winter, but they went ahead and moved him because they wanted to free up cash to pursue front end of their rotation pitchers which turned out to be Millwood and Padilla. Would they be contending without Millwood and Padilla? No, and that is a call I'm willing to make.

    Trading Soriano wasn't about acquiring Wilkerson.

    I agree that Jimbo overpaid for Soriano at the time of the trade, I have to say it turned out to be a huge win for him. Huge.
    Again, I don't see how a half season is any measure. What if he gets a return similar in quality to Henson, Melian, Reith, and Yarnell? Would it still be huge?

    And, while we are at it, what about Wily Mo for Arroyo, now? You were probably the biggest critic at the time of the trade. Can we now call this trade officially huge for the Reds or do we have to wait to see how the future pans out???

    I think it's vindictive to disparage the outcome of the deal and say the only thing that matters is what Jimbo gets in return when he trades Soriano.

    Jimbo made a good move. He made some good moves when he was running the Reds. Accept it and move on.
    I have never been critical of Bowden, not once. Check my posts. I'm not critical of him now. I'm just saying that the Soriano trade is not a great move until he gets a good return that improves his team.
    "I am your child from the future. I'm sorry I didn't tell you this earlier." - Dylan Easton


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