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Thread: Alfonso Soriano A Cardinal?

  1. #61
    C-A-T-S CATS! CATS! CATS! WVRed's Avatar
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    Re: Alfonso Soriano A Cardinal?

    Quote Originally Posted by MattyMo4Life
    Although players such as Albert Pujols, Matt Morris, Dan Haren, Coco Crisp, Adam Wainwright, and Anthony Reyes among many others have come through the Cardinals system.
    The Braves say hi.
    Quote Originally Posted by savafan View Post
    I've read books about sparkling vampires who walk around in the daylight that were written better than a John Fay article.

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  3. #62
    C-A-T-S CATS! CATS! CATS! WVRed's Avatar
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    Re: Alfonso Soriano A Cardinal?

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine
    Yes, I guess it is true that the Cards have many pitching prospects, however, quantity doesn't equal quality. Mark McCormick is on the same level as Wainwright?!? Dude, stop being such a homer. McCormick is almost 23 years old and has a 1.50 WHIP in low-A. How ridiculous. Jeez.
    Keep in mind this is the same team that managed to deal Danny Haren, Kiko Calero, and Daric Barton for Mark Mulder.

    I'm sure there were others teams who could have offered more than Barton, but Jocketty will pull the trigger if it will help his team.
    Quote Originally Posted by savafan View Post
    I've read books about sparkling vampires who walk around in the daylight that were written better than a John Fay article.

  4. #63
    Member Spitball's Avatar
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    Re: Alfonso Soriano A Cardinal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool
    If they would have kept Soriano and Young instead of acquiring Millwood and Padilla, don't you think they'd be in better shape?

    Also, it wouldn't have been difficult for them to acquire Padilla's $4m salary AND keep both Soriano and Young.
    You can debate this side note on a detail I used to explain the Rangers' reasoning, but this was not the focus of the discussion. There where reasons the Rangers traded Soriano and that is a debate on its own.

    The focus of my contention has been that the success of Washington's acquisition of Soriano can't be judged based on one half a season. This is an unfinished story because we have to see how Soriano is flipped. Isn't that fair? I'll ask you again about the Arroyo for Pena trade. You criticized Krivsky at the time of the trade, but can you now say, as you did of Bowden,
    "...it turned out to be a huge win for him. Huge"? Don't we really have to wait before calling huge wins?


    Quote Originally Posted by IslandRed
    They could have had Soriano AND Young AND Millwood AND Padilla for what they're paying now, instead of Milwood, Padilla, Wilkerson and an injured Eaton, and they'd probably be leading the division.
    Uhm...The Rangers are leading the division.
    "I am your child from the future. I'm sorry I didn't tell you this earlier." - Dylan Easton

  5. #64
    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
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    Re: Alfonso Soriano A Cardinal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spitball
    Uhm...The Rangers are leading the division.
    OK, so I meant "alone in the lead." :
    Not all who wander are lost

  6. #65
    Member Spitball's Avatar
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    Re: Alfonso Soriano A Cardinal?

    Quote Originally Posted by IslandRed
    OK, so I meant "alone in the lead." :
    Nitpicker...:
    "I am your child from the future. I'm sorry I didn't tell you this earlier." - Dylan Easton

  7. #66
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    Re: Alfonso Soriano A Cardinal?

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM
    It's not like Bowden had some kind of mysterious ability to see what Soriano was going to do this year. This has been Soriano's best season and there's no way anyone would have predicted it. .
    True, you never know for sure that it's going to be his best year, but it's usually a decent bet to grab a guy when he's one year away from free agency. A lot of guys (not in pennant races) seem a lot more motivated then.



    Quote Originally Posted by MWM
    I think it's a matter of Bowden seeing a player he always coveted and he went and got him and got lucky. I don't think it was a matter of him being a genius. .
    Well, I'm going to disagree. He did a trade that the majority of people here proclaimed to be stupid, and he clearly won the trade. Just because something can not be predicted mathematically (like comparing career OBP) doesn't mean the result is "luck". Bowden is a big fan of computer projections and having trusted scouts look at the player. Perhaps he has a better system.
    The guy has always had a talent for picking up good hitters, you can not dispute that. Sure, a few of them washed out, but he's had an amazing success rate. Gant, Todd Walker, Mitchell, Dunn, Kearns, Guillen, etc.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  8. #67
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    Re: Alfonso Soriano A Cardinal?

    Quote Originally Posted by oregonred
    Bowden is a genius and now has a trading chip at the deadline! Well except for the minor detail of his team being one of the few sellers, having the 4th worst record in baseball, being 12 under .500 and in last place in the NL East. But I digress
    Considering what he inherited (one of the worst teams in baseball 2 years ago), he's doing well.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  9. #68
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Alfonso Soriano A Cardinal?

    The focus of my contention has been that the success of Washington's acquisition of Soriano can't be judged based on one half a season. This is an unfinished story because we have to see how Soriano is flipped. Isn't that fair? I'll ask you again about the Arroyo for Pena trade. You criticized Krivsky at the time of the trade, but can you now say, as you did of Bowden,
    "...it turned out to be a huge win for him. Huge"? Don't we really have to wait before calling huge wins?
    Different circumstances. Krivsky did win the Arroyo/Pena deal up to this point, much to my surprise. But that story is far from over -- Arroyo has a couple of years left on his contract, and Pena is still very young and has time to develop. The purpose of that deal was to improve the principals in the long term, so it needs to be judged in the long term.

    Soriano/Wilkerson is a much shorter-term deal, since Soriano is in his contract year and Wilkerson has pretty much reached his plateau as a player at age 29. The whole reason Jimbo made the deal was to make the Nationals stronger *this season*, either in terms of the standings (which failed) or in terms of possessing tradeable commodities (which succeeded). I don't think I'd be going out on a limb to say that Soriano is much more valuable at this point than the Wilkerson package. The deal is done, and Jimbo greatly improved his ability to acquire future talent. Even if Jimbo screws up when dealing Soriano, he still deserves credit for making a great move to get him.
    Last edited by Johnny Footstool; 07-11-2006 at 10:23 AM.
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  10. #69
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Alfonso Soriano A Cardinal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R
    Look over every trade for young pitching that JimBo has made for both the Reds and the Nats. How many of those young pitchers that he has acquired or drafted have amounted to anything? My memory may be failing but I sure cannot remember a single one.
    Well, in all honesty, Bowden has not traded for many young pitchers, considering the length of his career as GM. In Cincy, since the Reds wanted a "win now" approach, he generally signed vets. Here's the young pitchers that I recall him trading for and/or developing. I think Bowden was brought in 1993, but maybe it was 92. I'm going to list everyone I can remember that was under 30 when Bowden got him, because some of the best moves he made were guys that were in their 20's that had unrealized talent.. If you don't want to consider them, I'll put their approximate age in, so you can disregard them.

    The good
    Reyes
    Sullivan
    Williamson
    Graves
    Tomko
    Brantley (was 28, still fairly young, when the Reds got him in 94)
    Chuck McElroy (was 26, I think in 94)
    Burba (29)
    CJ Nitcowski
    Remlinger (27)
    Schourek (26 or 27 ???)
    Gabe White (Maybe it was the previous GM that plucked him from Expos, I can't recall).
    BJ Ryan
    Reidling
    Brower (although he may have been 30 when picked up, I think he had less than 3 years sevice time, maybe he had 4).
    Reitsma



    The disappointments
    Rob Bell
    Reith
    Carrasco
    Tim Fotugno
    Winchester
    Mercado
    Acevado
    Chen
    Luke Hudson
    Dempster

    Note that the first three guys were all very highly regarded throughout baseball when they were picked up. Maybe not Reith, but Bell and Carrasco were very highly thought of. So, it wasn't just Bowden that thought those guys had potential.

    Add in David Wells from Detriot, Neagle, Harnisch, Shaw, Belinda, Dessens, talking Mercker out of retirement, and a few other picks, and Bowden isn't such a poor judge of pitching talent as some people think. Also consider that Allen handcuffed Bowden on the draft, forcing him to make subobtimal drafts, because his hands were tied.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  11. #70
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    Re: Alfonso Soriano A Cardinal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spitball
    Trading Soriano wasn't about acquiring Wilkerson.
    I'm of the opinion that in a trade, one team doesn't have to necessariliy be the "loser". There's been good arguements that the move worked out good for Texas.

    But let's look at it purely from Washington's perspective. A huge win. If your theory is that Texas was desparate to dump Soriano (which may be true), then give Bowden credit for pouncing in and stealing him. Just like we give Wayne credit for jumping in and stealing Arroyo because the Red Sox thought they had too much pitching and decided to give Arroyo away.

    Good GMs stay in contact with all the teams, so that they can grab the Brandon Phillips, Arroyo, or Soriano when another team is willing to give him away.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!


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