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Thread: ESPN Page 2: Defining A Horrific Trade

  1. #16
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    Re: ESPN Page 2: Defining A Horrific Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by redsfan30
    In fairness to Wayne Krivsky, many people were making these exact same comments about him after the Wily Mo/Arroyo deal.

    That's worked out pretty well.....
    True. But I think many more loved that deal; comparatively, this trade has garnered a number of shoulder shrugs.

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  3. #17
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: ESPN Page 2: Defining A Horrific Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by redsrule2500
    Because ESPN is actually against the trade probably makes even more reason to like it.
    The Writer is a BP author writing a special for ESPN... if that matters (not that it really does)

  4. #18
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    Re: ESPN Page 2: Defining A Horrific Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by Hap
    friday's game.....two outs in the eighth.......
    Two words: sample size.
    /r/reds

  5. #19
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    Re: ESPN Page 2: Defining A Horrific Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by redsrule2500
    Because ESPN is actually against the trade probably makes even more reason to like it.
    If you have to hunt for reasons to like a deal, it's probably not that great of a deal.

    As for the article, the writer's points were all valid. The Reds gave up two quality everyday players (both in the top 10 in OPS at their relative positions) and received some slightly above average bullpen arms in return. Plus Royce Clayton.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  6. #20
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: ESPN Page 2: Defining A Horrific Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool
    If you have to hunt for reasons to like a deal, it's probably not that great of a deal.

    As for the article, the writer's points were all valid. The Reds gave up two quality everyday players (both in the top 10 in OPS at their relative positions) and received some slightly above average bullpen arms in return. Plus Royce Clayton.
    Don't forget an injury prove single a pitcher
    Go Gators!

  7. #21
    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: ESPN Page 2: Defining A Horrific Trade

    I'll say what I said in the other thread:

    We NEED A POLL!

    I'm like Bill Clinton. I need a public opinion poll to decide what I think!
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

    http://dalmady.blogspot.com

  8. #22
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    Re: ESPN Page 2: Defining A Horrific Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by oneupper
    I'll say what I said in the other thread:

    We NEED A POLL!

    I'm like Bill Clinton. I need a public opinion poll to decide what I think!
    there is one on Live!
    "My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton

  9. #23
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: ESPN Page 2: Defining A Horrific Trade

    I'll tell ya one thing!

    After this deal, GMs all over are shaking in their boots as to what it's now gonna cost them to acquire pitching.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  10. #24
    You're soaking in it! MartyFan's Avatar
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    Re: ESPN Page 2: Defining A Horrific Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by registerthis
    Clayton may not boot the routine play, but Lopez's offensive talents outstripped his defensive liabilities--and its likely that he was destined for a position other than shortstop in 2007 anyway. Clayton is a slight defensive upgrade, and a tremendous offensive downgrade. On no planet that I've inhabited could that be considered a good deal.

    As far as the pitching is concerned--again, no one's arguing that the reds didn't need to upgrade their pitching staff. And no one's arguing that this trade didn't acocmplish that. But, good grief, the price to do so was astronomical.

    You say that the team will score runs without Lopez and Kearns, but where are those runs going to be coming from? Both players were solid run producers. Even if Denorfia steps in seamlessly to the void kearns left behind--a big if--you still have a blackhole at shortstop that's going to give you nothing in the way of offensive production.

    Slice it, dice it, flip it--view it however you wish. This trade is a 1976 Gremlin of a deal that looks bad now, and has a very high likelihood of looking even worse later.

    I would have a problem keeping Royce Clayton as our everyday SS for 2007...do I mind if he is on the team? nope...but lets face it this team can still produce a boatload of runs without Kearns or Lopez. It has not been the Reds inability to produce runs that has been the problem it has been poor RP and poor defense that allows the other team to score more runs than the Reds.

    Krivsky is on his way to being identified as one of the greatest GM's in the game...watch...it will happen.
    "Sometimes, it's not the sexiest moves that put you over the top," Krivsky said. "It's a series of transactions that help you get there."

  11. #25
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    Re: ESPN Page 2: Defining A Horrific Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC
    I'll tell ya one thing!

    After this deal, GMs all over are shaking in their boots as to what it's now gonna cost them to acquire pitching.
    agree, it's an interesting situation-- Krivsky drove the market for young pitching way up. Personally, I've long thought that this market was undervalued. Did Krivsky overpay, or did he actually get true (but not traditional) value?

    and will we ever have pitching enough to spare in order to realize some of this value in return? That's a nice dream. A very longterm dream.

  12. #26
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    Re: ESPN Page 2: Defining A Horrific Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFan
    Krivsky is on his way to being identified as one of the greatest GM's in the game...watch...it will happen.
    Not by making deals like this, he's not.
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

  13. #27
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: ESPN Page 2: Defining A Horrific Trade

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton
    agree, it's an interesting situation-- Krivsky drove the market for young pitching way up. Personally, I've long thought that this market was undervalued. Did Krivsky overpay, or did he actually get true (but not traditional) value?

    and will we ever have pitching enough to spare in order to realize some of this value in return? That's a nice dream. A very longterm dream.
    Interesting notion. I'm doubtful the Reds can drive the market though. They don't have the resources in cash, talent or stature for it. My guess is this deal will only have major impact on the market if it works out like gangbusters this season. Otherwise it might be the cautionary tale against moving everyday talent for middle relief.

    Though, if this is the harbinger of where the young pitcher market is at or headed, then Homer Bailey becomes a fascinating chit.

    As for Krivsky, I thought you made a good point about Krivsky's daring in one of these many threads about the trade, noting the hot streak he's been on since he arrived. This trade certainly smacks of a GM who thinks he's acquired the Midas Touch (and it does happen in some seasons).

    This deal seems to me like Krivsky's set-for-life wager. Supposedly one of the beautiful things about running a casino is that even if someone's winning all night long they eventually think they're invincible and make a monster longshot wager in the hopes of parlaying their good fortune into a comfortable and immediate retirement. Usually the house recoups its losses thanks to that bet, but every now and then someone hits jackpot, convincing waves of others to put their faith in the fickle hands of fortune.

    As you noted in that other thread, Krivsky deserves to feel emboldened after Phillips, Arroyo and Ross (not to mention Hatteberg). IMO, he's played some long odds that middle relief will deliver this team and that Majewski and Bray are the arms to do it. I think the house is going to get even with him on this wager, but I do admire the fearlessness of the move.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.


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