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Thread: Krivsky's deals give Reds a chance - Buster Olney - ESPN Insider

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    Member paulrichjr's Avatar
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    Krivsky's deals give Reds a chance - Buster Olney - ESPN Insider

    Very Very Interesting in my opinion. One of the first positive articles about the trade that I have seen..

    Krivsky's deals give Reds a chance
    I called Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky the other day to talk about Cincinnati's trade with Washington, and I really didn't mean anything negative when I referred to Bill Bray and Gary Majewski as middle relievers. Honest, I didn't.
    To me, Mike Timlin is a middle reliever, and so were Jeff Nelson, Mike Stanton and Ramiro Mendoza on the championship Yankees; underrated Padres pitcher Scott Linebrink is a middle reliever, and the overpowering Joel Zumaya is a middle reliever.

    Krivsky thinks the phrase "middle reliever" is inexact, with some negative connotations. "It depends on what vernacular you use," he said.

    His vernacular is more precise. For Krivsky, there are closers and there are middle guys and there are long guys, and there are guys with the ability to ferry a lead to the closer. He says Majewski and Bray fit the last description, and in fact, before he made the trade with Washington, he asked his scouts a related question about each: "Is this a guy who can handle a pressure spot in the seventh or eighth inning?" What he was told was, yes, they are.

    Many general managers and scouts and talent evaluators thought that Krivsky made a poor trade last week. "I don't get it at all," said one veteran executive.

    They think he paid too much in giving up outfielder Austin Kearns and shortstop Felipe Lopez. I disagreed, even before dialing up Wayne and having the chat about bullpen vernacular.

    Here's why I think the move could turn out fine for Cincinnati -- and why, in the end, Krivsky's deal has a chance to look smart: The value of middle relievers (or set-up men, or whatever you want to call them) is increasing, like oil stock.

    Just about every contender is looking for bullpen help these days, with GMs and scouts reporting that there's virtually nothing out there, unless you want to take a shot at a Roberto Hernandez. Well, Krivsky got the bullpen help he wanted and needed. "I'm scrambling to find the best pitching available," he said.

    Two weeks ago, the Reds had a bullpen they could not win with, and Krivsky could have been conservative and played it safe, and eventually the Cincinnati relief corps would've torpedoed the team's chances for playing in the postseason.

    But he made a deal and gambled on Eddie Guardado, hoping that Everyday Eddie would benefit from the adrenaline of being in a new situation with a new challenge. Then he went out and got two quality arms in Bray and Majewski. Cincinnati may or may not make the playoffs, in the end, but the Reds won't be taken down by their vastly improved bullpen.

    Kearns and Lopez are young and talented, both 26 years old, and both could turn out fine. But the Reds couldn't make the playoffs with the team they had, and now they can. And if you want a set-up man, or a middle reliever, you have to pay -- a trend that gained momentum in the offseason when, for the first time, more money was spent on relievers than on starting pitching. Kyle Farnsworth got $17 million to be the Yankees' set-up man, the Red Sox spent decent cash on Julian Tavarez and Rudy Seanez and got the best bargain in baseball with their signing of Timlin, and the Cubs paid big cash for Bobby Howry and Scott Eyre.

    The Mets' trade for Duaner Sanchez looked odd at the time it was made -- a swap of a starting pitcher for a middle reliever -- but it might turn out to be the best move of the offseason, this side of Krivsky's Bronson Arroyo-Wily Mo Pena trade.

    The volatility of middle relievers is well-established. Just consider the recent rise and fall of Cliff Politte of the White Sox as perhaps the best example. It may turn out that Bray and Majewski don't an especially long shelf life, that Kearns and Lopez last longer as productive players.

    But you need solid middle relief to win. The Indians, devastated by the departure of Howry, will tell you that. So will the Yankees, who haven't been able to recreate the deep bullpens of their dynasty years, the biggest reason they haven't won a World Series in nearly six years.

    More than a dozen teams will be fighting over the scraps of the middle-relief trade market in the next 14 days, but Krivsky will not. He got his guys, whether you want to call them quality set-up men, as Krivsky did, or middle relievers, as Washington general manager Jim Bowden referred to them after the trade was completed.

    Krivsky now has a bullpen good enough to contend. The Reds have a chance to make the playoffs, and if they get there, it'll be because he was willing to pay a high price for something he had to have.

    The Reds keep on winning, and the bullpen has looked solid.
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    Re: Krivsky's deals give Reds a chance - Buster Olney - ESPN Insider

    Buster Olney likes the trade? Oh boy, now I really hate the trade.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

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    Re: Krivsky's deals give Reds a chance - Buster Olney - ESPN Insider

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine
    Buster Olney likes the trade? Oh boy, now I really hate the trade.
    This is ironic for those who like it as well.
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    Re: Krivsky's deals give Reds a chance - Buster Olney - ESPN Insider

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine
    Buster Olney likes the trade? Oh boy, now I really hate the trade.
    I can't stand Olney either, but this was a refreshing article to read.
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    Re: Krivsky's deals give Reds a chance - Buster Olney - ESPN Insider

    4 days after the trade we are leading the wildcard winning 4 straight games that were close and needed the bullpen to pull it off. Granted the new guys werent used that much, the trade is accomplishing what it needed to do so far, stabilizing the pen

    and you gotta remember both relievers are young so its not like he dealt felo and kearns for a jose mesa type guy. Hopefully coffey Bray and Maj will be staples of the pen for the next 4 to 5 years. Remember in 99 it was the pen that carried us to that playoff game to get to the playoffs with Mets... like Onley said, in theory the bullpen shouldn't be what stops us from getting to the playoffs like it was looking b4 the break


    and i know u cant get excited about 4 games but the Rockies were tied with us in the wildcard b4 the series

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    Re: Krivsky's deals give Reds a chance - Buster Olney - ESPN Insider

    Krivsky thinks the phrase "middle reliever" is inexact, with some negative connotations. "It depends on what vernacular you use," he said.
    Wayne said the same thing to Joe and Steve when he was on with them this weekend during Saturday's game. He got very defensive.

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    Re: Krivsky's deals give Reds a chance - Buster Olney - ESPN Insider

    Well I've learned one thing from this trade.

    There's not one analyst on TV, radio or web that is liked or respected.

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    Re: Krivsky's deals give Reds a chance - Buster Olney - ESPN Insider

    Like Olney said, the trade made the Reds go from a probable non-playoff team to a playoff-bound team. I want to see people complaining about this trade when we make the playoffs in October.
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    Re: Krivsky's deals give Reds a chance - Buster Olney - ESPN Insider

    When the trade...

    You aren't running out there a White, Yan,, Hammond every other day...

    You don't have to call on Coffey everytime out when you NEED an out....

    You now have 3 good arms in the pen... Its going to be spread out and used to the good... I loved the trade... Still loving it....

    But, all in all... We'll find out what we are made up coming up the last week of July.
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    Re: Krivsky's deals give Reds a chance - Buster Olney - ESPN Insider

    Olney covered the Yankees pretty well during their dynasty and knows the value of a good bullpen. Good to see him stepup and really analyze the trade instead of looking at it on the surface.

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    Re: Krivsky's deals give Reds a chance - Buster Olney - ESPN Insider

    I understand that it was a very high price to pay, and history may show that it was, in fact, too high.

    But I'm slowly coming around on it for two reasons, one of which Olney (who I generally don't like as a writer) touched on and one he didn't:

    1. The bullpen was quickly draining the life force from the team. The deals for Guardado and Bray/Majewski were well-received within the clubhouse by all reports, a trumpet call that this time, the front office was going to bring reinforcements rather than sound the retreat. The power of that can be overestimated but it shouldn't be underestimated, either. Coupled with the four-game winning streak out of the break, I think our chances of postseason play are, if not terrific, much better than they were ten days ago.

    2. I think the losses of Kearns and Lopez from 2007 forward, while significant, can be managed. I simply didn't have a lot of faith in either one's career path, and that's where I depart from the "worst trade ever" hyperbole. No Hall of Famers or perennial All-Stars are involved here. Just two pretty good ballplayers with long-term question marks.

    Well, I guess there's a third reason:

    3. I'm a Reds fan and I want it to work.
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    Re: Krivsky's deals give Reds a chance - Buster Olney - ESPN Insider

    Island Red I really liked your answer. I might also add that it frees up future money since Kearns and especially Lopez were due big raises - money that can go to pitching, and with Junior nearing the end of his tenure and Milton's millstone one season away from being unhung from the Reds necks, Krivsky will have more moola during the next 2-3 seasons.

    Another reason to like it may be the attitude factor that has been talked about in TC's great thread. That may be why AK wasn'tas highly valued as many here thought he should be - and why he has a big question mark hanging over his head. If Jeremy Affeldt or McDougal were all KC was willing toi give up for him and a Linebrink for AK trade was nixed because they thought AK wasn't enough that should tell something about what AK's value was in the eyes of baseball execs.

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    Re: Krivsky's deals give Reds a chance - Buster Olney - ESPN Insider

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake
    Island Red I really liked your answer. I might also add that it frees up future money since Kearns and especially Lopez were due big raises - money that can go to pitching, and with Junior nearing the end of his tenure and Milton's millstone one season away from being unhung from the Reds necks, Krivsky will have more moola during the next 2-3 seasons.

    Another reason to like it may be the attitude factor that has been talked about in TC's great thread. That may be why AK wasn'tas highly valued as many here thought he should be - and why he has a big question mark hanging over his head. If Jeremy Affeldt or McDougal were all KC was willing toi give up for him and a Linebrink for AK trade was nixed because they thought AK wasn't enough that should tell something about what AK's value was in the eyes of baseball execs.
    Another thing to consider is Kearns health and also the replacements. Kearns has been healthy, but I don't know if he's ever made it through a year and when you have Deno ready to play and guys like Buce on the farm it will help not mind losing kearns so much. With FeLo we don't have a long term replacment, but apparantly his defense was hurting the team. We can now get Freel in there more and save dollars going forward to get even more pitching. This team has no 5th starter now. maybe Claussen. I will miss those guys, but I think this trade gives us a shot.
    And This One Belongs to the REDS!!!

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    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: Krivsky's deals give Reds a chance - Buster Olney - ESPN Insider

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsMan3203
    You aren't running out there a White, Yan,, Hammond every other day...
    ya, but now you are running the likes of Clayton/Castro out there everyday.

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    Re: Krivsky's deals give Reds a chance - Buster Olney - ESPN Insider

    Yeah, obviously everyone in baseball knew more than what the average fan knows when it came to AK.
    Who's on first?


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