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Thread: 1-2 punch: Harang and Arroyo

  1. #1
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    1-2 punch: Harang and Arroyo

    Only one other team in the NL has two pitchers in the top 15 in ERA (Mets: Pedro (3.45) and Glavine (3.69))

    Arroyo is 2.92 (3rd)
    Harang is 3.72 (14th)

    Pedro and Glavines ERA together is 3.58
    Arroyo and Harang ERA together is 3.31

    Although Pedro's other numbers are better than these three, he is still giving up more runs than Arroyo.

    Does this make our two the best 1-2 punch in the NL?

    Also, they have pitch a combined 280.1 innings compared to 238.1 for the Mets duo.

    Too bad we don't have good 4 or 5 guys. The Lizard has a good ERA of 4.43 and is easily our number 3 starter these days.

    I like this though, 2 ace-like pitchers on the Reds staff...who knew!?

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  3. #2
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: 1-2 punch: Harang and Arroyo

    I so much look forward to Harang and Arroyo's games, then I cross my fingers for the next 3.

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    For a Level Playing Field RedFanAlways1966's Avatar
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    Re: 1-2 punch: Harang and Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by AvesIce51
    I like this though, 2 ace-like pitchers on the Reds staff...who knew!?
    Good stuff, Aves. And what did it take to get these two starters? Hmmmm....

    Uh, Jose Guillen. And, uh... Wily Mo Pena.

    Anyone out there willing to admit that they were mad as a hornet's nest when the REDS traded Jose Guillen on July 29, 2003 (also Miley's 1st game as REDS manager) to the Oakland A's? And what has Jose Guillen done (not incl. temper tantrums) since then? I believe he has been on 3 teams and more-or-less was thrown off 1 of those teams.

    Jose and Wily Mo who? Jose and Wily Mo what?

    Pitching, pitching, pitching. Nice to have some decent pitching. Nice to be alive for a playoff spot as July comes to an end.
    Small market fan... always hoping, but never expecting.

  5. #4
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: 1-2 punch: Harang and Arroyo

    The top two of our rotation plus the snake bit Elizardo is why I believe we stand good chances should we make it to the playoffs. Over a short series, you can get some good outings out of those arms. Likewise, depending on where we're playing away, Milton works as well too.

    I was fine with the trade the first time Harang pitched. I just looked it up on Retrosheet - it was 8/9/03 and he went 5.2 innings 3 ER, 6 Ks in a winning effort.

    [In a side note, while fishing for that this I saw a name on in the boxscores that I didn't recall at all - Mark Budzinski - he played with the Reds for a week (8/3 to 8/9) in four games. Disappeared after that. Probably in the witness protection program.]

  6. #5
    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: 1-2 punch: Harang and Arroyo

    Take out Harang and Arroyo and the REDS starters' ERA is 5.80!!!

    That almost a run worse than the much maligned bullpen even BEFORE the trade.

    1) Looks like the most pressing need was NOT addressed by said trade.
    2) How can JN justify leaving starters 3/5 long into games?
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

    http://dalmady.blogspot.com

  7. #6
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: 1-2 punch: Harang and Arroyo

    The one thing Arroyo reminded me of earlier this year was the immense power of something big gone right.

    A starter who can throw 200+ IP with a sub-4.00 ERA is an immensely powerful weapon. Harang might also become the first Reds pitcher since Jose Rijo in 1993 to top the 200 K mark.

    Last night was a perfect example of what a quality pitcher can do for a team. If a team like the Astros puts forth a lineup as pathetic as the one it fielded last night, a pitcher like Harang wrecks it. It's not even a baseball game, it's a nine inning foregone conclusion.

    One more guy like these two and, IMO, the Reds would be a shoo-in for the playoffs.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

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    For a Level Playing Field RedFanAlways1966's Avatar
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    Re: 1-2 punch: Harang and Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz
    I was fine with the trade the first time Harang pitched. I just looked it up on Retrosheet - it was 8/9/03 and he went 5.2 innings 3 ER, 6 Ks in a winning effort.
    Yep... as a matter of fact Aaron Harang won his 1st 3 starts as a REDS pitcher in 2003.

    In that 1st start on Aug. 9 @ San Diego:
    * The infamous (and beloved here at RZ) Reggie Taylor hit a grand slam!
    * The REDS struckout 15 times in the game (Oliver Perez started for the Pads).
    * Larkin was 3-for-4, Casey 3-for-5, Larson 2-for-4 (2RBI), Jimenez 2-for-4 (3 runs). Who were these guys?!?

    Harang's 2nd start was a game in which he outdueled Brandon Webb as the REDS won 3-2. His 3rd start was a game in which he outdueled some no-named pitcher (Randy Johnson) and the REDS won 2-0.

    A nice trade made by the 2 asst. GMs at the time. Jimbo was fired the day before this trade was made... he only likes 5-toolers, right?
    Small market fan... always hoping, but never expecting.

  9. #8
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: 1-2 punch: Harang and Arroyo

    It was clear almost right out of the shoot that we picked up two pretty good pitchers (Claussen and Harang) and that Harang was the top one. I keep hoping that Claussen will return to his promise, but it's been three years. But if he did, we'd have a very good staff of Harang, Arroy, Ramierez, Claussen and Milton (and Milton looks good as a 5th starter). Now, the last three are "ifs", but we can still dream, right?

  10. #9
    Member 15fan's Avatar
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    Re: 1-2 punch: Harang and Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz
    and Milton looks good as a 5th starter.
    No sir.

    Since signing with DanO, Milton has pitched 286.2 innings for the Reds. He has given up 338 hits, 59 HRs and 195 earned runs in those innings.

    That's a 6.12 ERA over a season and a half of work.

    The only time that "Eric Milton" and "good" should be used in the same sentence is:

    Eric Milton is NOT a good pitcher.

    The fact that Eric Milton is getting $9 million a year to "pitch" ranks up there with the Texas decision to give Chan Ho Park a million bazillion dollars and an 82 year contract as one of the worst pitcher signings ever.

  11. #10
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: 1-2 punch: Harang and Arroyo

    The 2006 Milton currently looks better than either Joe Mays or Dave Williams. If we had Claussen and Ramierez pitching at their best, Eric Milton this year looks superb as a 5th starter. This isn't to debate the initial signing which certainly was a mistake. But it's a mistake we're stuck with and I'd take the 2006 Milton (which is different than last year's version) as the #5 guy over the other two we've run out there thus far.

  12. #11
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: 1-2 punch: Harang and Arroyo

    Wow, a 5.47 ERA now counts as superb. I've got to get down with this new math.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

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    Re: 1-2 punch: Harang and Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz
    The 2006 Milton currently looks better than either Joe Mays or Dave Williams.
    ... and pickled hog balls look more appetizing than a steaming pile of vomit. That doesn't make them a tasty treat.

    Eric Milton has been horrid as a Red. He was craptastic in 2005 and he has been slightly less craptastic in 2006. In no way, shape, or form has Eric Milton ever been 'superb' in a Reds uniform.
    Last edited by Steve4192; 07-26-2006 at 10:43 AM.

  14. #13
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: 1-2 punch: Harang and Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by M2
    Wow, a 5.47 ERA now counts as superb. I've got to get down with this new math.
    Compared to what we've had out there, yes it would be "superb"

    Joe Mays 0-5 8.70 ERA (I'm not sure what the Royals/Reds breakdown is.
    Dave Williams 2-3 7.20 ERA

    Compare that to our division

    Houston: Backe 1-1 4.50 ERA
    Chicago: Marmal 3-4 4.50 ERA
    St. Louis: Weaver 4-11 6.32 ERA
    Milwaukee: Davis 6-6 5.01 ERA*
    Pirates: Santos 4-7 5.28 ERA

    * On the depth chart on MLB.com, they list Ohka as the #5 - that might be the order, but he's more likely their #2.

    Elsewhere in the league:

    New York Mets: Pelfrey 2-1 5.28 ERA
    San Francisco: J. Wright 6-8 5.03 ERA
    Arizona: Juan Cruz 3-5 4.95 ERA

    Assuming that Claussen can return to what he's capable of doing (and I grant that is a BIG "if"), getting Ramierez some more support and luck, I'd take a rotation that I stated earlier with Milton as the #5. Perhaps "superb" overstates it (I'm backpedaling here), but it's better than what we've run out there.

  15. #14
    Member 15fan's Avatar
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    Re: 1-2 punch: Harang and Arroyo

    Milton's lines (IP / ER) from his last 5 starts:

    6.0 / 3
    6.1 / 5
    6.0 / 3
    7.0 / 7
    6.2 / 4

    That's 22 ER in 32 innings for a 6.19 ERA.

    Back it up and go with Milty's last 7 starts, and you'll see starts of 4.1 IP / 6 ER and 5.1 IP / 6 ER. That brings him up to 34 ER in his last 41.2 IP, for an ERA of 7.35.

    Let's take off those Milton goggles you're wearing and go get you a cup of coffee and something to eat. You're chasing the most heinous tail that has strolled into the bar in a looooooong time.

  16. #15
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: 1-2 punch: Harang and Arroyo

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz
    Compared to what we've had out there, yes it would be "superb"

    Joe Mays 0-5 8.70 ERA (I'm not sure what the Royals/Reds breakdown is.
    Dave Williams 2-3 7.20 ERA

    Compare that to our division

    Houston: Backe 1-1 4.50 ERA
    Chicago: Marmal 3-4 4.50 ERA
    St. Louis: Weaver 4-11 6.32 ERA
    Milwaukee: Davis 6-6 5.01 ERA*
    Pirates: Santos 4-7 5.28 ERA

    * On the depth chart on MLB.com, they list Ohka as the #5 - that might be the order, but he's more likely their #2.

    Elsewhere in the league:

    New York Mets: Pelfrey 2-1 5.28 ERA
    San Francisco: J. Wright 6-8 5.03 ERA
    Arizona: Juan Cruz 3-5 4.95 ERA

    Assuming that Claussen can return to what he's capable of doing (and I grant that is a BIG "if"), getting Ramierez some more support and luck, I'd take a rotation that I stated earlier with Milton as the #5. Perhaps "superb" overstates it (I'm backpedaling here), but it's better than what we've run out there.
    So what you've found is that pretty much every team has a better #5 starter than Eric Milton. I'd say you need to pay attention to your own findings.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.


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