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Thread: Dodgers falling out of contention

  1. #1
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Dodgers falling out of contention

    ... interesting since the media out there loved the firing of Depodesta and the hiring of Colletti. Hmm.
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

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    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Dodgers falling out of contention

    I figure the Dodgers are about two years away from a major spasm. Right now a lot of people are still counting on the farm system to ride in and save the day. If that doesn't happen then there's going to be blood in the cubicles.
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    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Dodgers falling out of contention

    Quote Originally Posted by M2
    I figure the Dodgers are about two years away from a major spasm. Right now a lot of people are still counting on the farm system to ride in and save the day. If that doesn't happen then there's going to be blood in the cubicles.
    BP has an article how Colletti has been dealing away young players for essentially nothing. Will it continue?
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

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    Re: Dodgers falling out of contention

    BP has an article how Colletti has been dealing away young players for essentially nothing. Will it continue?
    Then there's that Ethier for Bradley deal he made with Beane.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

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    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Dodgers falling out of contention

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve
    Then there's that Ethier for Bradley deal he made with Beane.
    and the Sanchez for Seo deal he made with Mets.
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

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    Re: Dodgers falling out of contention

    and the Sanchez for Seo deal he made with Mets.
    Hardly robbery. Sanchez is a 26-year-old middle reliver who's having his first decent year. Seo was then packaged with Navarro (who they decided they didn't need after giving 23-y-o Russell Martin lots of starts) for Hendrickson and Hall. Hardly a "nothing" return.

    Ethier: .344/.396/.532, 24 years old
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    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Dodgers falling out of contention

    Mark Hendrickson and Toby Hall are as close to nothing as you can get. Hendrickson is 32 and his last good year was...well...never. Toby Hall's lifetime OPS is .681.

    Ethier has turned out great thusfar. Other than that, I'm unimpressed.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

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    Re: Dodgers falling out of contention

    Ethier has turned out great thusfar. Other than that, I'm unimpressed.
    Other than Coletti totally fleecing Beane, you're unimpressed.

    Ignoring about 35 games, I'm calling the Tigers a .500 ballclub.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

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    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Dodgers falling out of contention

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve
    Other than Coletti totally fleecing Beane, you're unimpressed.

    Ignoring about 35 games, I'm calling the Tigers a .500 ballclub.
    Excellent attempt at a strawman
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

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    Member Cedric's Avatar
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    Re: Dodgers falling out of contention

    Oh Paul D.

    The bruised ego of a certain subset of fans. The hero. The legend.

    What did he do good again? Can anyone name more than two things the guy did right? And two important things.
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.

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    Re: Dodgers falling out of contention

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric
    Oh Paul D.

    The bruised ego of a certain subset of fans. The hero. The legend.

    What did he do good again? Can anyone name more than two things the guy did right? And two important things.
    You mean other than producing the Dodgers' first full-season division championship since 1988 while getting the Marlins to swap Brad Penny for pile 'o junk?

    Those are just two. There's more. You know that, Ced.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
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    Re: Dodgers falling out of contention

    Excellent attempt at a strawman
    Strawman? Explain to me.

    Apparently, BP's contention is that Colletti has been frittering away young talent for nothing. That was your characterization of the piece.

    I presented counter-evidence -- Ethier for Bradley.

    Johnny says, "other than that, I'm unimpressed."

    I say, "that's like saying, 'other than about 35 wins, the Tigers are a .500 ball club.'"

    In other words, I used an analogy based on Johnny's position to say that I don't think Johnny's response legitimately invalidates my presentation of evidence that, in fact, Colletti's performance can't be summarized as "trading youth for nothing."

    Strawman -- per Webster's, "a weak argument set up by a politician, etc., so that he may attack it and gain an easy, showy victory."

    So, JOhnny's shifting of the debate from "is he really trading youth for nothing?" to "is he impressing me (other than fleecing Beane)?" is strawman.

    And, you're playing "the strawman card" is strawman.

    So -- where is the overwhelming discarding of young talent for nothing in LA?
    Last edited by lollipopcurve; 07-27-2006 at 11:31 AM.
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    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
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    Re: Dodgers falling out of contention

    Here's a clip from that article:

    Colletti has now made five trades since the start of the year, and in three of them, he’s traded prospects for major-league talent. (The exceptions were this week’s swap of Sandy Alomar Jr. for right-handed reliever B.J. La Mura, and January’s four-pitcher deal with the Mets, which defies classification.) He’s dealt away Edwin Jackson, Chuck Tiffany, Dioner Navarro, Johnson and Pimentel and received Danys Baez, Mark Hendrickson, Toby Hall and Dessens in return. Baez’s gaudy save totals aside, Colletti hasn’t added a single player who is likely to have a high-profile role with a good team.
    I thought the article was a little weak by BP's standards; Sheehan is looking at Colletti's moves so far and extrapolating that he shares his former boss Sabean's tendency to freely swap talented minor-leaguers for incremental big-club upgrades, which would fritter away a good farm system. I don't think it's an open-and-shut case, for what it's worth. It could also be that he's a Schuerholz, someone who knows the difference between the gold and the pyrite and will swap pyrite for value whenever he can get it.
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    Re: Dodgers falling out of contention

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool
    Mark Hendrickson and Toby Hall are as close to nothing as you can get. Hendrickson is 32 and his last good year was...well...never. Toby Hall's lifetime OPS is .681.
    Yeah. I don't get that either. From 2004-2005, Sanchez produced 162 IP with an ERA around 3.50. Colletti swaps him for a smoke-and-mirrors guy (Seo), then swaps Seo and a promising young catcher for a Mark Hendrickson and Toby Hall.

    That's diminishing returns in action.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
    --Ted Williams

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    Re: Dodgers falling out of contention

    I don't think it's an open-and-shut case, for what it's worth.
    Open and shut? How about "weak and transparent"?

    The omission of the Ethier for Bradley swap is egregious.

    I think BP is great, but this piece is hack.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini


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