Turn Off Ads?
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 24

Thread: Lidle vs. Ramirez

  1. #1
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    15,898

    Lidle vs. Ramirez

    Lidle: 8-7, 125 IP, 4.74 ERA, 1.36 WHIP, 7.0 K/9, 2.5 K/BB, $3.3 Million
    Ramirez: 4-6, 96 IP, 4.22, 1.30 WHIP, 6.0 K/9, 3.2 K/BB, $.3 Million

    For as much as we dengrate O'Brien, there's something to be said for the trades he made when he did so proactively. His drafts appear to be good as well. Just sayin', not everything he did was bad.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #2
    Man Pills
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Posts
    24,874

    Re: Lidle vs. Ramirez

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick
    Lidle: 8-7, 125 IP, 4.74 ERA, 1.36 WHIP, 7.0 K/9, 2.5 K/BB, $3.3 Million
    Ramirez: 4-6, 96 IP, 4.22, 1.30 WHIP, 6.0 K/9, 3.2 K/BB, $.3 Million

    For as much as we dengrate O'Brien, there's something to be said for the trades he made when he did so proactively. His drafts appear to be good as well. Just sayin', not everything he did was bad.
    The wake of Dan O'Brien will forever bear the stench of Milton, but I agree that some of his moves and particularly his second draft were quite good in retrospect.

  4. #3
    Let's ride BRM's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Colorado's eastern plains
    Posts
    11,232

    Re: Lidle vs. Ramirez

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    The wake of Dan O'Brien will forever bear the stench of Milton, but I agree that some of his moves and particularly his second draft were quite good in retrospect.
    That's a fairly toxic stench. It's strong enough to overtake most of the good he did accomplish.

  5. #4
    Man Pills
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Posts
    24,874

    Re: Lidle vs. Ramirez

    Quote Originally Posted by BRM
    That's a fairly toxic stench. It's strong enough to overtake most of the good he did accomplish.
    I agree. But I think it's also fair to say that it wasn't all bad.

    Still, I don't want the guy anywhere near the Reds' organization again.

  6. #5
    Member schroomytunes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    wilmington n.c.
    Posts
    953

    Re: Lidle vs. Ramirez

    ok, lets look back at obrien. The main reason why I guess for his disliking is that he had no direction of where the organization was going. He held on to players too long that should have been jettisoned.(Casey,Larue,) and signed the worst FA pitcher on the market for GABP, at a ridiculous hand tieing contract. Although his drafts were ok, we never really landed anyone that could help us now, he had no creativity in wheeling and dealing. He seemed to always be the guy who left the poker table early. Also the man talked in circles to the media. But in his defense Lindner was not as easy to work for as Castellini.

  7. #6
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Olathe, KS
    Posts
    13,782

    Re: Lidle vs. Ramirez

    Don't forget O'Brien is the one who signed Cory Lidle for $2.75M in the first place and ended up paying him about $2M for 149 innings of 5.32 ERA. And he also asked for and received Machado in the deal instead of someone useful.

    He got lucky with Ramirez.

    He did seem to have a decent grasp of the draft, albeit by drafting long-term high school prospects instead of getting quick help by drafting college pitchers (something the organization needed badly).

    When it came to major league operations, though, he was lost. Tom Hagen to Krivsky's Santino Corleone.

    I'd rather have Michael Corleone running the family -- someone who's ruthless, but thoughtful and shrewd.
    Last edited by Johnny Footstool; 07-28-2006 at 11:13 AM.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  8. #7
    Man Pills
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Posts
    24,874

    Re: Lidle vs. Ramirez

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool
    Don't forget O'Brien is the one who signed Cory Lidle for $2.75M in the first place and ended up paying him about $2M for 149 innings of 5.32 ERA. And he also asked for and received Machado in the deal instead of someone useful.

    He got lucky with Ramirez.
    And Wayne got lucky with Ross.

  9. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Shelburne Falls, MA
    Posts
    10,063

    Re: Lidle vs. Ramirez

    He got lucky with Ramirez.
    Reminds me of what we used to say as kids:

    Opponent: "All luck."

    Oneself: "All skill."

    Trades that work out are good trades. Trades that don't are bad. I don't care who makes them.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  10. #9
    Member paulrichjr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Savannah, TN
    Posts
    2,875

    Re: Lidle vs. Ramirez

    Quote Originally Posted by schroomytunes
    ok, lets look back at obrien. The main reason why I guess for his disliking is that he had no direction of where the organization was going. He held on to players too long that should have been jettisoned.(Casey,Larue,) and signed the worst FA pitcher on the market for GABP, at a ridiculous hand tieing contract. Although his drafts were ok, we never really landed anyone that could help us now, he had no creativity in wheeling and dealing. He seemed to always be the guy who left the poker table early. Also the man talked in circles to the media. But in his defense Lindner was not as easy to work for as Castellini.
    Most drafts don't help you now. I can count very very few players drafted in the last 3 years that are already helping out. As far as his first draft being bad which many say it was...He might just have gotten the best one out of the bunch with Homer. Time will tell but everyone on this board knows that this farm system is much stronger today than it has been in a long time and it isn't because of Bowden or Krivs.

    I think the biggest problem with DanO was that he sold himself to the prior owner by stressing building for the long-run and he followed that plan completely. He couldn't do both which to be honest most GMs say that you are better off focusing on one or the other....Personally I would have loved DanO to be an assistant GM in charge of the draft...We would have been much better off with this scenario than what we got this year in my mind...
    Tim McCarver: Baseball Quotes
    I remember one time going out to the mound to talk with Bob Gibson. He told me to get back behind the batter, that the only thing I knew about pitching was that it was hard to hit.

  11. #10
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Olathe, KS
    Posts
    13,782

    Re: Lidle vs. Ramirez

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve
    Reminds me of what we used to say as kids:

    Opponent: "All luck."

    Oneself: "All skill."

    Trades that work out are good trades. Trades that don't are bad. I don't care who makes them.
    There's a little luck involved in all trades. The key to making "good" trades is to make a good analysis beforehand so that you minimize the luck factor.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  12. #11
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    15,898

    Re: Lidle vs. Ramirez

    Agreed Schroomy. Yes, we all hated the Milton deal. But his real problem was his complete inability to act timely and creatively. He was almost precisely the anti-bowden. He was inoffensive, quiet, and slow to decide. He cost us more in what he didn't do than by what he did. He reminds me a bit of an Allan Baird. Always "rebuilding" because he didn't have the guts to really do it all at once.

    However, my point is simply that Elizardo is quietly morphing in to a very solid #4, perhaps #3 who I think we can pencil in to the rotation moving forward. It's been a long time since we had a starter that young turn in to a real major league guy.

    Don't forget he also signed Randa and flipped him for a guy who is now Eddie Guardado and another who will be starting for us tomorrow. In the whole sheme of things, the trade is likely to be a footnote, but both the signing and trade proved to be solid moves.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 07-28-2006 at 11:30 AM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  13. #12
    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Back in Florida
    Posts
    8,138

    Re: Lidle vs. Ramirez

    I give some credit to Mario Soto and whoever thought to bring him aboard.
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

    http://dalmady.blogspot.com

  14. #13
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta, aka, the most prosperous city in the world.
    Posts
    10,531

    Re: Lidle vs. Ramirez

    Lidle's stats are irrelevent at this stage. He was a FA, so he had as much chance of signing him as anyone. What we traded was 2 months of Lidle, back in 2004. It wouldn't matter id Lidle was the best pitcher in the league, it would still have been a great trade.

  15. #14
    Member paulrichjr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Savannah, TN
    Posts
    2,875

    Re: Lidle vs. Ramirez

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool
    There's a little luck involved in all trades. The key to making "good" trades is to make a good analysis beforehand so that you minimize the luck factor.
    Agreed...another way to say it is that hard work often leads to more luck. So is it luck or is it being smart?

    I'm trying to get my younger brother (22 - I'm 38) to understand the difference between luck and hard work (being smart whatever you want to call it) Everyone he knows that is successful he always says stuff like they got lucky but I always try to show him ways that they took risk to make their "luck" happen. I believed the Lidle trade was a smart move when we made it and never could understand the venom pored out on DanO for that move as well as others like the Mercker deal, and the other trade with the Phillies that year that brought Moran (I think). Yes, he made some bad moves but his moves made a heck of a lot more sense that the junk Bowden pulled his last two years...trying to win when we had no chance and not trying to get prospects at the end of the deadline...
    Tim McCarver: Baseball Quotes
    I remember one time going out to the mound to talk with Bob Gibson. He told me to get back behind the batter, that the only thing I knew about pitching was that it was hard to hit.

  16. #15
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Olathe, KS
    Posts
    13,782

    Re: Lidle vs. Ramirez

    Quote Originally Posted by paulrichjr
    Agreed...another way to say it is that hard work often leads to more luck. So is it luck or is it being smart?

    I'm trying to get my younger brother (22 - I'm 38) to understand the difference between luck and hard work (being smart whatever you want to call it) Everyone he knows that is successful he always says stuff like they got lucky but I always try to show him ways that they took risk to make their "luck" happen.
    Interesting discussion.

    Luck is all the stuff that happens beyond your control.

    Hard work is essential. Anyone can work hard, though.

    Smart people can analyze a situation and figure out how to put that hard work to the best use -- particularly for finding ways to minimize the impact of the things that are out of your control.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25