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Thread: For pete's sake, stop the whining ...

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    For pete's sake, stop the whining ...

    It's time to accept a few things and enjoy the PENNANT RACE ...

    ... Royce Clayton is the starting shortstop. He's not the long-term answer and you may not believe he's the best option right now. Krivsky and Narron disagree. He's the quarterback of the infield. They're not juggling everything around with 50 games to go. Get over it and support the guy. He's playing hard to WIN THE PENNANT.

    ... Rich Aurilia is going to play. A lot. And guess what? He's producing. Edwin Encarnacion will have his time. Right now, Aurilia is a huge part of the success this team is having. Along with a solid glove and productive bat, he's the vocal leader this team has lacked. He's playing hard to WIN THE PENNANT.

    ... Edwin Encarnacion is a talented young player, good hitter and terrible defensive player. He's going to be a good player, probably as soon as next season. He's going to contribute to the success of the team down the stretch this season. But he's not a finished product. He's young and he has time to improve. This team was losing games due to its infield defense when Lopez and Encarnacion were playing every day. Narron isn't an idiot, he just values the defense and steady hand Aurilia has at third. And it isn't a terrible thing for a young player to learn that he has to keep working on ALL facets of his game once he reaches the major leagues.

    ... The bullpen is important. It's not sexy or fun, but it's important. This team was sinking like a stone a month ago due to a terrible bullpen. Since then, Wayne Krivsky has turned it from a weakness to a strength. Suddenly, it's a deep, versatile, battle-tested group. With 3 and 4 starters who are basically six-inning pitchers and no fifth starter, this team is going to need all those arms to produce. If Krivsky "overpaid" a little for bullpen help, I have no problem with that. He's trying to WIN THE PENNANT.

    ... Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez are gone. They aren't coming back. If you want to talk about them, I'm sure there are very nice message boards for Washington Nationals fans. But most Reds fans would rather discuss the players who are here trying to WIN THE PENNANT. If you choose to leave RedsZone for NationalsZone, feel free to return when the playoffs start.

    ... Veteran players are GOOD things. Veteran teams win the World Series. Guys like Rich Aurilia, Scott Hatteberg, Royce Clayton and Eddie Guardado all play important roles on a team. Just because they're on the other side of 30 doesn't make them useless. It's not a coincidence that these guys are playing a lot and the Reds are having their best season in seven years. Everyone has a role. It takes 25 players to win. Everyone contributes in their own way. Someday Edwin Encarnacion will be 30 and you can shove him aside for a rookie who can commit 45 errors in a season.

    ... The Reds aren't perfect. They aren't a finished product. Guess what? Neither is anyone else. The Mets' two best pitchers are (gasp) old and likely to tire down the stretch (it's already happening). The Cardinals are Pujols and a lot of question marks. There are no great teams in the National League. The Yankees need starting pitching and they have a $200 million payroll. The Red Sox are spending almost as much money and they need pitching too. The Tigers and Twins need offense and the White Sox need starting pitching. EVERYONE has holes in their team. But you try to get to the playoffs and WIN THE PENNANT.

    ... Wayne Krivsky will make bad moves. He may have already. Every GM has made bad moves. Get over it. At least Krivsky realizes the point is to WIN THE PENNANT and not to "collect chits."

    ... Finally, these next two months should be FUN. We're in the thick of the Central Division race and LEADING the Wild Card. We have a very real chance to WIN THE PENNANT. Get over the fact that the GM and manager aren't doing everything just the way you would and wrap your mind around the fact that this may very well be our first postseason appearance in 11 years. If you do, you might even realize these guys are doing something right.

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  3. #2
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: For pete's sake, stop the whining ...

    That's a good post.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden

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    Mon chou Choo vaticanplum's Avatar
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    Re: For pete's sake, stop the whining ...

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic
    The bullpen is important. It's not sexy or fun, but it's important.
    Um...A GOOD BULLPEN IS VERY SEXY.
    There is no such thing as a pitching prospect.

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    Harry Chiti Fan registerthis's Avatar
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    Re: For pete's sake, stop the whining ...

    I'm still a bit unclear as to what the Reds are TRYING TO DO.
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

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    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: For pete's sake, stop the whining ...

    Quote Originally Posted by registerthis
    I'm still a bit unclear as to what the Reds are TRYING TO DO.
    Put a team on the field to play championship baseball - seems simple enough, no?

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    Re: For pete's sake, stop the whining ...

    Feel better now?

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    Member top6's Avatar
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    Re: For pete's sake, stop the whining ...

    A lot of posters on this board seem to want to tell others what we can and can't post about. Would you mind telling us what we are permitted to discuss, if we can't talk about our starting shortstop, our best young position player never playing, the bullpen, the biggest trade of the year, the age of the team or any flaw with team?

    Seriously, people are going to criticize the team and second guess the manager. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF TALKING ABOUT BASEBALL AND WHY IT IS THE GREATEST SPORT EVER!!!!!!!!!!! The decisions are all so ludicrously simple, and we all think we could do better. Relax and let people complain - they love the Reds just as much as you.

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    Re: For pete's sake, stop the whining ...

    Quote Originally Posted by top6
    A lot of posters on this board seem to want to tell others what we can and can't post about. Would you mind telling us what we are permitted to discuss, if we can't talk about our starting shortstop, our best young position player never playing, the bullpen, the biggest trade of the year, the age of the team or any flaw with team?

    Seriously, people are going to criticize the team and second guess the manager. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF TALKING ABOUT BASEBALL AND WHY IT IS THE GREATEST SPORT EVER!!!!!!!!!!! The decisions are all so ludicrously simple, and we all think we could do better. Relax and let people complain - they love the Reds just as much as you.

    Good post. Just because people are complaining about Clayton playing and EE not playing doesn't mean they aren't enjoying the pennant race.

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    Re: For pete's sake, stop the whining ...

    Quote Originally Posted by BRM
    Good post. Just because people are complaining about Clayton playing and EE not playing doesn't mean they aren't enjoying the pennant race.
    I think most people are enjoying the fact that it's August 1, and they still care enough about the Reds' season to post at all!

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    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: For pete's sake, stop the whining ...

    So, since I can no longer post my opinion, would you let me know what my opinion is?
    Suck it up cupcake.

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    Re: For pete's sake, stop the whining ...

    I think the point of his original post was if you were in a coma for the last four months and just came out of it and came to Redszone to see how the Reds were doing, you'd come away thinking they were on the same level as the Royals.....not in a prime spot for a playoff spot.
    "Strickland Propane... Taste the meat, not the heat." - Hank Hill

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    Re: For pete's sake, stop the whining ...

    its a given talent to whine when arguably the best offensive player with exceptional range is benched in favor of a weak-hitting against righties at home and weak-hitting on the road who has cement Nikes.

    Do I enjoy the pennant race? Abso-freaking-lutely.

    Can I express my ideas of what I feel is wrong? Sure.

    Can I express my ideas of what I like? Sure. Heck I'm one of about 4 people who liked the Kearns/Lopez trade.

    I personally think its time to stop whining about whining. Enjoy the game.
    Some people play baseball. Baseball plays Jay Bruce.

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    Re: For pete's sake, stop the whining ...

    Quote Originally Posted by top6
    A lot of posters on this board seem to want to tell others what we can and can't post about. Would you mind telling us what we are permitted to discuss, if we can't talk about our starting shortstop, our best young position player never playing, the bullpen, the biggest trade of the year, the age of the team or any flaw with team?

    Seriously, people are going to criticize the team and second guess the manager. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF TALKING ABOUT BASEBALL AND WHY IT IS THE GREATEST SPORT EVER!!!!!!!!!!! The decisions are all so ludicrously simple, and we all think we could do better. Relax and let people complain - they love the Reds just as much as you.
    It just seems that there are an infinte number of threads and posts criticizing (and thus defending) the moves of the GM and/or manager and certain players. After a while it turns into .

    No one is saying don't criticize Narron or Krivsky or any of the players, but after a while it does become tiresome (and it takes up alot of space on the board).

    Until Narron finds a new/creative way to screw up a game, Krivsky makes another bad/good move, Dunn finds another way to strike out, Milton finds another way to give up a gopher, Clayton finds another way to be a bad SS, etc. etc., it's all been said before.

    "Narron's an idiot." "EE should be playing everyday." "Milton's awful." "Clayton's terrible." "That trade is a desperate act." "Dunn strikes out too much." OVER AND OVER -- Doesn't make for much in the way of "intelligent" baseball conversation.
    Last edited by dabvu2498; 08-01-2006 at 11:41 AM.
    When all is said and done more is said than done.

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    Will post for food BuckeyeRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: For pete's sake, stop the whining ...

    Who is whining?

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic
    It's time to accept a few things and enjoy the PENNANT RACE ... .
    I can enjoy the pennant race and question the decisions made by the front office and manager. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic
    ... Royce Clayton is the starting shortstop. He's not the long-term answer and you may not believe he's the best option right now. Krivsky and Narron disagree.
    Of course Krivsky believes he's the best option. He traded for him. There in lies the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic
    ... He's the quarterback of the infield.
    I guess that means Felipe Lopez is the QB of the Washingon infield.


    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic
    ... They're not juggling everything around with 50 games to go.
    Oh, but they have been juggling everything around.


    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic
    Get over it and support the guy.
    Who is not supporting him? It's an internet message board. I will support him when I go to the game. He can't hear me call him a hack when I'm watching him on t.v., so he'll be okay. I don't think me thinking he's sub par and mentioning it to my wife, to the guys at the local pub, or an internet message board is effecting his satanic .666 OPS. I think maybe we need for more fans to support the team first, by actually going to the games, before we worry about Royce's feelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic
    He's playing hard to WIN THE PENNANT.
    I would hope they are all playing "hard". Is there someone that isn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic
    ... Rich Aurilia is going to play. A lot. And guess what? He's producing. Edwin Encarnacion will have his time. Right now, Aurilia is a huge part of the success this team is having. Along with a solid glove and productive bat, he's the vocal leader this team has lacked.
    Edwin Encarnacion produces too. His time should be now to give insure we have a better a better chance of winning - NOW.

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic
    He's playing hard to WIN THE PENNANT.

    As opposed to....?


    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic
    ... Edwin Encarnacion is a talented young player, good hitter and terrible defensive player.
    So he's a "talented young player", but "terrible defensive player"? Maybe you meant just "talented young hitter".


    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic
    He's going to be a good player, probably as soon as next season.

    He's a good player now.


    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic
    He's going to contribute to the success of the team down the stretch this season. But he's not a finished product. He's young and he has time to improve. This team was losing games due to its infield defense when Lopez and Encarnacion were playing every day.

    I seem to remember the team winning games with those two on the field. They actually were winning and more than they are now (before EE got hurt). This team will be losing games if they don't score runs. You don't take Lopez, Kearns, and Encarnacion out of the lineup and expect to keep producing runs. Those three have contributed to the Reds success (up to this point) as much as anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic
    Narron isn't an idiot, he just values the defense and steady hand Aurilia has at third. And it isn't a terrible thing for a young player to learn that he has to keep working on ALL facets of his game once he reaches the major leagues.
    Who doesn't value defense? Again, Encarnacion is as much responsible for the Reds success this year as Aurilia. Why now that the pressure is getting tight, as we come down the stretch, does Narron need to micro-manage and play favorites? And why can't EE and RA both play?


    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic
    .. The bullpen is important.

    So is an offense that continues to score runs.


    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic
    It's not sexy or fun, but it's important.

    Same with an offense that can score runs. But an offense that can score runs is sexy, I must say. It doesn't make it less important because it's more sexy, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic
    This team was sinking like a stone a month ago due to a terrible bullpen. Since then, Wayne Krivsky has turned it from a weakness to a strength.
    I'll give you Guardado. He has been superb, but most supported that decision and it came with practically no cost. But Majewski hasn't contributed to any success. In fact, they are winning in spite of the Majik man. And Bray, although filled with a ton of potential, he hasn't been blowing their socks of either. Any "success" the bullpen has had can be contributed to Guardado and coincidence - not Yan, not Bray, and definitely not Majewski. And since the break, they have a sweep of the Rockies and that's the only thing keeping them above .500. One sweep. Since then, we've played the same we've played all year - .500.



    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic
    Suddenly, it's a deep, versatile, battle-tested group.
    But that is sexy, right?


    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic
    With 3 and 4 starters who are basically six-inning pitchers and no fifth starter, this team is going to need all those arms to produce.
    We had this all year, not just now.

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic
    If Krivsky "overpaid" a little for bullpen help, I have no problem with that. He's trying to WIN THE PENNANT.

    Then go out and land a stud for the rotation (if you are going to overpay).

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic
    ... Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez are gone. They aren't coming back. If you want to talk about them, I'm sure there are very nice message boards for Washington Nationals fans. But most Reds fans would rather discuss the players who are here trying to WIN THE PENNANT. If you choose to leave RedsZone for NationalsZone, feel free to return when the playoffs start. .
    Uhhh, I'm not sure how to respond to this one.


    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic
    ... Veteran players are GOOD things. Veteran teams win the World Series. Guys like Rich Aurilia, Scott Hatteberg, Royce Clayton and Eddie Guardado all play important roles on a team. Just because they're on the other side of 30 doesn't make them useless. .

    Sure, veteran players that are good, are "GOOD things".



    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic
    It's not a coincidence that these guys are playing a lot and the Reds are having their best season in seven years. .

    Please don't include Clayton. He hasn't contributed to any success. And like I said, EE, Lopez, and Kearns are as much responsible for where the Reds are right now as anyone.


    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic
    Everyone has a role. It takes 25 players to win. Everyone contributes in their own way. .
    Is that a line from Bull Durham?

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic
    Someday Edwin Encarnacion will be 30 and you can shove him aside for a rookie who can commit 45 errors in a season.
    Oh, but isn't it you that wants the young players like EE, who helped put the Reds into the position they are now in to now be pushed aside?


    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic
    ... Wayne Krivsky will make bad moves. He may have already. Every GM has made bad moves. Get over it. At least Krivsky realizes the point is to WIN THE PENNANT and not to "collect chits." .
    And the point of an internet message board is to discuss things and oh, I don't know maybe call out a GM that has made a "bad move". What else is there to talk about? And what GM doesn't want to "WIN THE PENNANT"?

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic
    ... Finally, these next two months should be FUN. We're in the thick of the Central Division race and LEADING the Wild Card. We have a very real chance to WIN THE PENNANT. Get over the fact that the GM and manager aren't doing everything just the way you would and wrap your mind around the fact that this may very well be our first postseason appearance in 11 years. If you do, you might even realize these guys are doing something right.

    Of course it's fun. It's just most of us would like to see the manager put our beloved team in a position to win more games and he continually bucks the odds, throws caution to the wind, manages with his gut and heart

    WINNING GAMES. That's more fun. And winning more games, puts you in a better position to WIN THE PENNANT.
    Last edited by BuckeyeRedleg; 08-01-2006 at 11:37 AM.

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    Re: For pete's sake, stop the whining ...

    Quote Originally Posted by top6
    A lot of posters on this board seem to want to tell others what we can and can't post about. Would you mind telling us what we are permitted to discuss, if we can't talk about our starting shortstop, our best young position player never playing, the bullpen, the biggest trade of the year, the age of the team or any flaw with team?

    Seriously, people are going to criticize the team and second guess the manager. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF TALKING ABOUT BASEBALL AND WHY IT IS THE GREATEST SPORT EVER!!!!!!!!!!! The decisions are all so ludicrously simple, and we all think we could do better. Relax and let people complain - they love the Reds just as much as you.
    I think his point was that it gets a little tiring to start every game thread with "Why is Clayton playing SS?" or "Why is EE not in the lineup?"

    Surely these questions don't need to be asked every game, and they are.

    I'm a little surprised that a lot of posters can't seem to retain from game to game the fact that Clayton is the starting SS. Surely there can't be that much surprise when he's in the lineup day to day?

    And if Clayton is batting 2nd (or leadoff) vs. a LH pitcher, perhaps check and see that he's got a .400 OBA vs. LH pitching before expressing disgust that such a poor hitter is batting at the top of the lineup.

    After all, it may have taken a year or so, but lots of posters now understand that Aurilia's 1100 or so OPS vs. LH pitchers allows him to bat clean up vs. LH pitchers. And I realize that he sucks vs. RH pitchers, but I don't feel the need to question Narron (who's not reading these posts anyway) about why he's left in to bat cleanup (or even in the lineup for that mater) vs. a RH pitcher. After 100 or so times, I've learned to see it without reacting (even though I don't agree with it).


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