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Thread: Soo...Could Tonight Have Gone Any WORSE??

  1. #1
    Winning the Human Race TheBigLebowski's Avatar
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    Soo...Could Tonight Have Gone Any WORSE??

    Allow me to list the litany of problems we had tonight.

    First and foremost, we lost to a team in close pursuit of us for the W/C.

    Bronson Arroyo had yet another poor outing, adding fuel to the "Arroyo is regressing to the mean!" and "Arroyo is tired!" fires. Regardless of what you think of BA, you have to admit your confidence in the man is damaged now.

    Royce Clayton had yet another bad defensive outing. Royce was one of the players we acquired when we dealt Kearns, Lopez, and Wagner. Ostensibly, Royce was to make the defense better. He has done nothing of the sort. My two Corgis could play better defense, and I'd wager they'd garner a few more base hits.

    I hate to re-hash the Kearns/Lopez/Wagner deal for the 143,452nd time, but the return for that deal continues to make WK look like a moron while raising the collective blood pressure of Reds fans from sea to sea. Majewski's been horrendous. Bray took the loss tonight and looked awful, and I am including the Freel dropped fly in my analysis. This trade has not helped us AT ALL. One of the worst deals the Reds have ever made in my opinion. It gets worse with every passing day. BTW - Kearns and Lopez are starting to hit for WASH now.

    We picked up two guys on deadline day - Cormier and Lohse. Rheal Cormier rheally walked the first batter he faced with the bases loaded. He then gave up the Furcal double. What the hell is it about the Reds' uniform that makes relievers stink??? BTW, to those apologists who were trying to bail out RC by stating that it is very difficult to make your first appearance with a new team with the bases loaded - come on. He's a 39 year old "veteran," which should make him impervious. In all seriousness, there is no excuse for his performance. Our other newbie, Kyle Lohse, gave up 4 hits and an ER in his first IP as a Red. Most Reds fans were not big fans of either trade. Don't expect that to change now.

    Getting back to Freel...knowing Narron like we all do, his error now means he will go from being an almost-regular to Chris Denorfia/EE status. Not having Freel in the lineup hurts this team immensely. WE know that. Impartial observers know that. Big Foot knows that. Jerry Narron, sadly, does not.

    [rant]I am getting really tired of reading posts here from people who think that getting Clayton the hell out of the IF, moving BPhil to SS, and platooning the 45 people we have on this roster who can play 2B is a bad idea b/c 'you cannot revamp an infield at this point in the season' and ' Aurilia and Clayton are veterans who know what they are doing and this team is winning for a reason.

    WHAT A BUNCH OF BUNK.

    I don't care how big of a Narron apologist you are - his personnel decisions are legendarily bad. Boone-ish. There is NO F'ING reason why BPhil cannot play short. It's not as if you're asking a left fielder to throw middle relief. Rich Aurilia is NOT a cleanup hitter. You do NOT PH for EE with the bases loaded. You do not bat Royce Clayton leadoff (JN did this in game 2 of the Brewers series). Hell, you really shouldn't bat him at all. He's horrible offensively and defensively. Everyone here already knows that.

    David Ross should be getting 75% of the starts at C, and Jason LaRue should be in Louisville or on waivers. Ross produced tonight, as he does almost every night in which he starts.

    Soooo..to sum, we lost, all the roster moves we made or didn't make blew up in our face, we lost yet another chance to pick up ground in the NL Central race (and believe me - once we start winning again, so too will STL), and we lost to one of our W/C competitors.

    Bad, bad night. [/rant]
    Last edited by TheBigLebowski; 08-02-2006 at 12:08 AM.
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    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Soo...Could Tonight Have Gone Any WORSE??

    Like I posted in another thread, if they really want to make a run just follow the Twins method (cut bait on the old guys and turn it over to the youngsters)

    EE to 3rd, BP to SS, Freel to 2b, Denorfia to RF, RA platoon with Hatty and 3 starts elsewhere a week, move Jr down in the order.

    Of course we get to talk all we want but absolutely none of this will happen until after it is to late to matter. BTW, I doubt it will happen then. THe Reds have taken a roster with a nucleus of young talent and turned it into a geriatric ward.
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

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    Baseball card addict MrCinatit's Avatar
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    Re: Soo...Could Tonight Have Gone Any WORSE??

    With Narron at the helm, the youngsters will never get a chance. Period.

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    Re: Soo...Could Tonight Have Gone Any WORSE??

    Twins fans, incidentally, are apparently starting to believe that their club's reliance on overrated veterans was a result of Krivsky's influence. God I hope not. We need change, and we need it now.

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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Soo...Could Tonight Have Gone Any WORSE??

    It could have gone worse yes, but for that to happen Arroyo would have had to grabbed his arm before walking to the dugout,while on the same pitch a fly ball is hit to rf/cf gap and Griffey and Dunn collide in rf/cf and both leaving on a cart that incidentally runs over Ryan Freels foot and breaks it.

    But yeah, tonight was pretty freaking bad. Could have been worse. Pretty rough though.

  7. #6
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Soo...Could Tonight Have Gone Any WORSE??

    Quote Originally Posted by MrCinatit
    With Narron at the helm, the youngsters will never get a chance. Period.
    Wayne could "suggest" he play the kids, but I think Wayne likes the vets just as much as Narron does.
    Go Gators!

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    Re: Soo...Could Tonight Have Gone Any WORSE??

    Quote Originally Posted by flyer85
    Like I posted in another thread, if they really want to make a run just follow the Twins method (cut bait on the old guys and turn it over to the youngsters)

    EE to 3rd, BP to SS, Freel to 2b, Denorfia to RF, RA platoon with Hatty and 3 starts elsewhere a week, move Jr down in the order.

    Of course we get to talk all we want but absolutely none of this will happen until after it is to late to matter. BTW, I doubt it will happen then. THe Reds have taken a roster with a nucleus of young talent and turned it into a geriatric ward.

    Aurilia's line is in my sig, and Hatteberg is OPSing 900. Please, with all due respect, everybody please shut the hell up about Aurilia and Hatteberg.
    I hope it's never sunny in Philly again.

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    "Let's Roll" TeamBoone's Avatar
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    Re: Soo...Could Tonight Have Gone Any WORSE??

    Totally agree with EVERYTHING TBL said... excellent post. You should send it to JN, WK, and RC.

    Question: If Ryan Freel sits tomorrow because of the error he made tonight (we'll never know if that's the real reason he sits, if he sits at all, but we will assume so), why wouldn't Royce Clayton sit for the same reason (even though we know he won't)?

    That's a horrible sentence but I know you'll get my drift.
    "Enjoy this Reds fans, you are watching a legend grow up before your very eyes" ... DoogMinAmo on Adam Dunn

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    "Let's Roll" TeamBoone's Avatar
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    Re: Soo...Could Tonight Have Gone Any WORSE??

    Quote Originally Posted by TC81190
    Aurilia's line is in my sig, and Hatteberg is OPSing 900. Please, with all due respect, everybody please shut the hell up about Aurilia and Hatteberg.
    Yes, they're doing well; so was EE. It doesn't mean they should BOTH be in the lineup every single night.
    "Enjoy this Reds fans, you are watching a legend grow up before your very eyes" ... DoogMinAmo on Adam Dunn

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    Re: Soo...Could Tonight Have Gone Any WORSE??

    Quote Originally Posted by TeamBoone
    Yes, they're doing well; so was EE. It doesn't mean they should BOTH be in the lineup every single night.
    Why not? Rich can play 2B, Phillips SS, and Hatteberg stays at 1B.
    I hope it's never sunny in Philly again.

  12. #11
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: Soo...Could Tonight Have Gone Any WORSE??

    Lots of people seem fixated on the EE/RA situation which most have caluated could "cost" us 1-2 games if EE doesn't play. That is, if everything works out as predicted.

    People love to gripe about age. Another total non issue. If they are winning I don't give a crap how old people are.

    Clayton gets hammered and he should because he is horrible. I personally applogize to anybody who said he was horrible and I replied with "I don't know, if he brings good defense he's worth it". But one does not have to be clever to figure out that Clayton is a problem thus far.

    Narron's weakness that I think will infact hurt the team by way more than "1-2" games is his use of the pitching staff. We are reaping the benefits of it now. He rode BA hard in the early part of the season and now it seems to be effecting him. AH has still pitched well but not nearly as "crisply" as earlier. (That's my perception). I'd love to see some statistical work of BA's effectiveness in the later part of the season. If it shows he does infact "get tired" then Narron is 100% to blame as those stats and history are readily availble. All of the times BA was left in (like for complete game losses) just to eat up innings should have been avoided no matter how crappy the bullpen is. You don't use up one guy because the other guys suck.

    If BA can't get it together you can forget EE/RA's measly "1-2" games. The deficit will be much larger. Lizzard may be able to carry some of the slack but I don't see Milton and the 5th starter to be named later stepping up.

    He handling of the bullpen has been horrible but that was masked by the fact the bullpen itself was horrible. He's too late to pull the starter and doesn't have the feal for when a guy doesn't have it. Last night he made a lot of switches so maybe his confidence in the new guys will help with this issue. But if he continues to stick with the starter that "one batter too many" then we got big problems.

    The use of the pitching staff is a real issue IMO that I think deserves much more of our attention, statiscall research and analysis.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

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    Member Marc D's Avatar
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    Re: Soo...Could Tonight Have Gone Any WORSE??

    This brings me back to the point made by Narron supportsers of how much credit he should get for being above .500 and how much different things are than under Boone/Miley.

    The defense is still horrific, the team still makes bone headed base running errors pretty frequently, the best 8 don't play nightly and the use of what pitching resources are to be had is questionable at best.

    The only difference is that Narron has been handed better pitching than Boone or Miley and even with that has only managed to stay slightly above .500. Any normal year thats barely a fringe WC team and certainly not a "contender".

    When Arroyo goes back to normal the constant mistakes this guy makes will catch up and he'll be sub .500 just like the two managers he was cloned from that proceeded him.

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    Re: Soo...Could Tonight Have Gone Any WORSE??

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc D
    When Arroyo goes back to normal
    I'd say he's there.
    When all is said and done more is said than done.

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    CELEBRATION TIME RBA's Avatar
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    Re: Soo...Could Tonight Have Gone Any WORSE??

    Rich Aurilia is a terrible defender. Early in the game, there was a hit to his left and instead of going after the ball and making the play, Aurilia stood there like a statue. He didn't even make an attempt on the ball as the ball went into left field. Couple that with Clayton's lack of defense and the Reds have one of the worst 3rd Base/SS combo ever to start together.

    Here's what it the defense should be:

    EE 3rd Base
    BP SS
    Freel 2nd base
    1st Base Hat/RA
    RF Griffey
    CF Deno
    LF Dunn
    C Ross

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    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Soo...Could Tonight Have Gone Any WORSE??

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBigLebowski
    Getting back to Freel...knowing Narron like we all do, his error now means he will go from being an almost-regular to Chris Denorfia/EE status. Not having Freel in the lineup hurts this team immensely. WE know that. Impartial observers know that. Big Foot knows that. Jerry Narron, sadly, does not.
    Well, look at the bright side. Narron HAS to play either Freel or Denorfia. There's no veteran OF to take the RF slot (and least not yet )
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!


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