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Thread: Barry Larkin's HOF chances

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    Barry Larkin's HOF chances

    George and Chris were just discussing it in the 3rd innning. George just made the point that Larkin and Allan Trammell have similar numbers and that Trammell has never sniffed the HOF (according to George).

    I'm biased but to me Larkin has much better credentials. Larkin was an MVP and he was clearly the top SS in the NL for a pretty good duration. Ozzie kept getting those AS votes late in his career but Larkin had surpassed him.

    I know most believe Larkin deserves to be in, since we are all fans of the Reds. Thought I'd throw it out there, figured it might generate some positive discussion.

    Next year should be a good class, Ripken and Gywnn. But will Big Mac join them? Going to be quite a story, either way. I'd like to see Ripken and Gwynn go into together. Both guys were so classy and they played the game so well. If McGwire gets in, I hope it is not next year. I'd like to see Cal and Tony go in as a twosome.
    Last edited by MaineRed; 08-02-2006 at 08:12 PM.

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    Re: Barry Larkin's HOF chances

    i made a thread about this a week or so ago and I had the same discussion with a life long mets fan.

    He brought up many good points and I have to admit some of my view on Larkin is thinking wtih my heart, not brain. Ask fans of other teams during that era and many think he was a good player but not hall of fame.

    personally im not sure. his stats arent that great for his time and thats how players are judged. Ozzie was fortunate to have his prime in the 80's before the big offensive jump at the position.

    Larkin peaked in the early 90's up to '95 then his production went to just good--not great.

    I am beginning to re-think his HOF credentials.loved him as a player and person. We will see.

    also ripken and gwynn will go in together. thats established.

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    Re: Barry Larkin's HOF chances

    I might be biased, since I was a HUGE Larkin fan all my life, as most that post here were, but I always thought Larkin was a lock for the Hall.

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    You know his story Redsland's Avatar
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    Re: Barry Larkin's HOF chances

    A lot of voters are going to refresh their memories about that small market shortstop by looking at his counting stats, which aren't great.
    Makes all the routine posts.

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    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Re: Barry Larkin's HOF chances

    Any Hall of Fame with Ozzie Smith in it and not Barry Larkin loses a lot of credibility, IMO. Larkin was clearly the better player. The only thing Larkin is lacking is a little more longevity.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

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    Re: Barry Larkin's HOF chances

    The only thing Larkin is lacking is a little more longevity.
    Longest tenured Red by seasons is a good thing to have.

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    Re: Barry Larkin's HOF chances

    Back in the day, a media outlet (can't remeber which one) had a poll of all the GM's as to who they would pick if they were starting a team from scratch. Larkin won the poll by a wide margin.

    Maybe Joe Sixpack doesn't realize how good Larkin was. Maybe the baseball writers don't, either. Baseball executives from the era knew how great of an impact he had on the games.

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    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Re: Barry Larkin's HOF chances

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    Longest tenured Red by seasons is a good thing to have.
    I meant games played. His injuries kept him from having the requisite counting stats.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

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    Re: Barry Larkin's HOF chances

    I'm not Joe Sixpack and I am a lifelong Reds fan but I don't think Larkin has a good chance of getting into the hall of fame and I wouldn't vote for him. At the same time I would not have put in Ozzie Smith, Tony Perez, and a list of other marginal hall of famers. Larkin is in a difficult situation because he is in between eras. The previous generation of shortstops was based on the Ozzie mold for great defense and a little slap hitter. Then the next generation was A-Rod, Jeter, Garciapara, Tejada (roids???). Larkin's stats will be compared more to Jeter anybody and Jeter's stats are just better. Barry Larkin also gets a hit because he played for the Reds and was the best player on the Reds every year. He tailored his game to what the Reds needed each year be it a lead off hitter, 3 hitter, or RBI man hitting 5th. He didn't get the chance to be consistent at any one offensive mode, which he had the ability to do. Larkin will also be compared to Ripken who seems to hold a special place in voters hearts because he went to work each day. I would not vote Ripken in to the hall of fame either. I would only vote in A-Rod (his stats as a shortstop are still the best) and Jeter (if he gets to 3500 hits and has a career average over .310). I love the Reds and Larkin was great for Cincinnati but I just don't see him as a hall of famer and I wish the hall of fame would stop voting in marginal players. There has to be some player that is the best player not in the hall of fame.

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    Re: Barry Larkin's HOF chances

    Barry Larkin's numbers will be compared to those of Roberto Alomar, Craig Biggio, Jeff Kent, and wherever Jeter, Tejada and ARod are at that point, and he will compare poorly to all of them. I agree with the Trammell comparision, both were All Star players who, along with Alomar will fall short of HOF status.

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    Re: Barry Larkin's HOF chances

    I think the one thing that will hurt Lark is ARod, Nomar, and Tejada (among others) coming along and redefining the position. When Barry broke into the league, the shortstop was a defensive wizard who might hit for average if you're lucky. Larkin stepped in and became the first 30/30 shortstop. He was the influence for many of the young shortstops (Jeter especially). He was the original complete shortstop. Unfortunately, many of the younger shortstops have come in and put up much bigger stats. I just hope HOF voters remember to put Larkin in his correct era, not compare him to the enormous stats of current SS's.

    Edit: Just saw Steig made the same points as I did and we posted about the same time, didn't mean to copy.

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    Re: Barry Larkin's HOF chances

    He was a 12 time all star, 3 time Gold Glove Winner, 1995 NL MVP, and 9 time Silver Slugger Award Winner (the most of any SS ever). Thats pretty good. Hopefully the 9 Silver Sluggers will remind a few writers that he was the best with the bat in the late 80s through the 90s.

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    Re: Barry Larkin's HOF chances

    MWM, love the avatar. My wife and I are huge Seinfeld fans and one of the many lines we use when joking around is, "not too worried about it."

    She'll say that my boss called and is freaking out and I'll say, not too worried about it in Kruger's tone. HA HA.

    Kal, I know Rip and Gywnn will go in together. I was just saying I hope they go in alone, with no McGwire or anyone else to take away from the attention they deserve. I just wonder who the pricks will be this year that won't put them on their ballots. Its mind boggling to me that nobody has ever gone in with a 100% of the vote. Both of these guys should. But neither will.

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    Re: Barry Larkin's HOF chances

    Barry Larkin is one of the top shortstops of all time. Maybe he didn't have quite the offensive numbers that some of today's shortstops put up. However, he signifies the change in eras for baseball at the position. He, Cal Ripken and Alan Trammell led the way in making SS not just a defensive position, but an offensive position as well. Before them, shortstops who could hit were often moved to other positions (see Yount, Robin). From what I recall, there was such a premium placed on defense at SS that guys with a stick could be moved to other positions to improve the defense and the team could just put another good glove player in that SS spot. Larkin could not only hit, but was so good with the glove that the Reds would have been fools to move him to another position.

    Others have already noted it here and it has been well documented that Larkin played in a transitional period between two different eras for the shortstop position. I think we've gone from one extreme to another. Changes in stadia, nutrition and steriods has made teams focus on offense to such a degree that teams are willing to leave a guy with a big bat at shortstop even if his defense is not up to par. In the past, many of these shortstops would have been moved to another position. So now guys who would have been third basemen, first basemen, or outfielders at the start of Larkin's career are having their offensive numbers compared to his without any consideration of Larkin's superior defense.

    In "The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract," James ranked Larkin as the #6 all-time shortstop, behind Honus Wagner, Arky Vaughan, Cal Ripken, Robin Yount, and Ernie Banks, and just above Ozzie Smith, Joe Cronin and Alan Trammell. Looking only at what he had done only through the 2000 season, James said "Larkin is one of the ten most complete players in baseball history (emphasis his). He's a .300 hitter, has power, speed, excellent defense, and is a good percentage player. He ranks with DiMaggio, Mays, and a few others as one of the most well-rounded stars in baseball history."

    Granted, James noted that it was too early to rate Nomar Garciaparra, Derek Jeter and A-Rod. But still, can anyone say that any of these guys, or Tejada for that matter are as complete all-around players as Larkin was? I would say that they may better Larkin in some of the offensive categories, but just aren't the all-around player that Larkin was. Is Larkin better than most of the shortstops already in the Hall of Fame? I don't have time to run the numbers, being a new dad and getting ready for year three of law school, but I think he would compare favorably to all but three already in.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

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    Re: Barry Larkin's HOF chances

    They asked Peter Gammonds right after Barry retired what he thought and Peter said he thought it'd be awfully close. Was anyone else aware that Barry's tenure with the reds is in the top 5 tenures with 1 single team of any pro sport ever? I saw that stat last football season when they were talking about Brett Favre and his tenure with GB.

    I still think if Ozzie got in, Barry should. When you look at numbers, Barry's were better in almost every category. Do I have some bias? Of course. But I still think he should be in there, even if he's crawling.


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