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Thread: Anyone find it ironic?

  1. #1
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    Anyone find it ironic?

    That we played extremely well after we did the first trade with Kearns and Lopez, then started going way downhill after we gave up no major league talent and supposedly improved our team even more?

    Is it a situation of the initial trade sparking a jolt of lightning into the clubhouse which in turn made the Reds play better, but now reality has set in? At least statistically, our team did not get worse with the latest trade (even if Rheal has yet to pitch 1 decent inning since coming here and Lohse appears to not be great). Should we have went after another bat? The whole purpose of our trades were to improve our pitching even if it mean giving up offense. But at what point do you try to level things out? Do you think having Kearns and Lopez on our team now would make a huge difference in terms of our offensive numbers or more importantly, our win column?

    So what is it? Our pitching? Our manager? Our offense? Our defense? Some of everything?

    I really feel like Griffey is a huge factor. If the guy was putting up numbers like last year or any of his other years, we would definitely have more wins. Whether it's a homerun, a double, a single...just hitting for a better average. Offense isn't the only problem, though.

    It's clear that we need more starting pitching. True, bullpens are becoming an important part of a team now, but at what expense to starting pitching? You can't rush out bad starters only to have them pitch the game out of reach so you can bring in your solid bullpen to save it. Especially not with the offensive dropoff we've experienced. The starting pitching is a coin tossup at this point. Aaron is the only pitcher you can truly rely on to give you a good outing. Even then, he won't win 'em all. Bronson has struggled miserably as of late June. Ramirez is inconsistent. Milton is less consistent. Claussen (now Lohse) makes it worse.

    I'm a diehard Reds fan and for the most part, like all the moves. I just cannot believe that more thought wasn't given with respect to going after another starting pitcher. Whether it was with the Washington trade or with the most recent ones...or even doing a package with Rich and Larue or something. Anything. We wern't going to land a big name, but Kyle Lohse to save the day?

    Maybe I'm just frustrated. Every team is losing in the NL Central and it's such a prime time for the Reds to take advantage of it and they can't capitalize.

    What do you do at this point? The clock is ticking and time is running out. You can't just say, better luck tomorrow after you get swept at home by a team that had been previously struggling. You can't continue to lose like this and expect to be around in October.

    I don't know what it's going to take to turn things around, but something needs to happen fast before, as Marty would say, this turns into a "Titanic struggle".

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  3. #2
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone find it ironic?

    Uh, it's been three games. In one of those games they faced the All Star game starter who was throwing 97 MPH with good location. The next night they faced one of the best pitchers of all time on a night when his stuff was nasty.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

  4. #3
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone find it ironic?

    ...or maybe (JUST MAYBE) this team wasn't very good but had a lot of players that played way above their heads (see: Coffey, Todd; Phillips, Brandon; Ross, David; Arroyo, Bronson; Hatteberg, Scott) in the first half that, when combined with a generally lackluster NL, led people to believe this team was better than it really was.

    You can keep trading and flipping and spinning, but maybe the reality is that this is a .500 to sub-.500 ballclub that is just sliding back to where it is supposed to be in the standings.

    Or maybe I'm wrong...who knows anymore.
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  5. #4
    Will post for food BuckeyeRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone find it ironic?

    This is a 500 team. They are regressing to the mean.

    What's the RD? -20 something?

    They still have a few games to lose to get to what their record probably should be. I say ATL takes 2 of 3. Then they'll sweep the Cards, and then lose 5 or 6 in a row again.

    Just a very streaky, average team.

  6. #5
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    Re: Anyone find it ironic?

    I am beginning to wonder myself about this team. Granted, this is a rebuilding process and a much better team than last year, but if you think about it, there are only a few guys on the Reds that have tasted success and the postseason. Most of these guys are used to packing it in during the months of July and August. Not only do we need 2 starting pitchers, but we need some guys that are used to winning, as well as being leaders. I love Griffey but I don't think he has the mentality to lead a ball club, and he has only tasted the postseason a couple of times during his career. Do we need to jack our payroll and get a bunch of fantasy players...No...but we need very good players that can take the bull by the horns and win this division. And we either need Narron or a manager that will tell Griffey where he will bat and where he will play, as well as utilizing guys like Encarnacion and Ryan Freel on a daily basis. If this continues, contract or no contract, I don't think Narron will survive his tenure.

  7. #6
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone find it ironic?

    Quote Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1
    The whole purpose of our trades were to improve our pitching even if it mean giving up offense. But at what point do you try to level things out?

    So what is it? Our pitching? Our manager? Our offense? Our defense? Some of everything?

    It's clear that we need more starting pitching. True, bullpens are becoming an important part of a team now, but at what expense to starting pitching?

    The starting pitching is a coin tossup at this point. Aaron is the only pitcher you can truly rely on to give you a good outing. Even then, he won't win 'em all. Bronson has struggled miserably as of late June. Ramirez is inconsistent. Milton is less consistent. Claussen (now Lohse) makes it worse.
    Every team is losing in the NL Central and it's such a prime time for the Reds to take advantage of it and they can't capitalize.

    What do you do at this point? The clock is ticking and time is running out. You can't just say, better luck tomorrow after you get swept at home by a team that had been previously struggling. You can't continue to lose like this and expect to be around in October.
    I think that you have covered what Krivsky and Castellini have recognized and are working to correct through rebuilding the team this year and into the future. The reasons that you have listed is why the team cannot capitalize.

    Just because Krivsky and Castellini said that they wanted to win now, doesn't mean that they believed that they could win now with the team that they had at the start of this season, yes they are trying to win, but it is more likely that they are trying to address the problem areas that you have articulated above in a rebuilding process to win next year or the year after.

  8. #7
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone find it ironic?

    The starting pitching is a coin tossup at this point. Aaron is the only pitcher you can truly rely on to give you a good outing. Even then, he won't win 'em all. Bronson has struggled miserably as of late June. Ramirez is inconsistent. Milton is less consistent. Claussen (now Lohse) makes it worse.
    Perhaps it's the quality of these pitchers, but then again, Arroyo could use a little luck over the last six weeks, Ramierez is stil young (23, I think), and, IMO, is showing some pluck out there (he strikes me as a fairly smart pitcher overall). As someone noted elsewhere, Milton has had five straight quality starts if you pull him once a batter reaches in the 7th inning or later (and his last two starts have been quality). I think some have noted by the time a team is seeing him the third time in a game, it's time to bring in the cavalry. Harrang, of coure, has been masterful for the most part. Fifth spot? As they used to say in Milwaukee, pray for rain (although I'll at least give Lohse a chance to show us something - forget the rest of his season - look what Maddux did after this Jeckyl and Hyde season thus far).

    The starting pitching could definitely improve and I think that's the first priority in the offseason. That, plus just little bit of luck from here on out.

  9. #8
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    Re: Anyone find it ironic?

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz
    Fifth spot? As they used to say in Milwaukee, pray for rain
    Actually, it was Boston but I get your point.

    From Baseball Almanac: "....the Boston Braves, who had captured the National League flag by 6½ games. While the Braves had a good-hitting ballclub, much of the National Leaguers' hopes rested on the arms of Johnny Sain and Warren Spahn. In fact, a formula penned in the papers as "Spahn and Sain and two days of rain" seemed to capture not only the depth of the team's starting pitching....."

    Rem
    Last edited by remdog; 08-04-2006 at 06:49 AM.

  10. #9
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone find it ironic?

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg
    This is a 500 team. They are regressing to the mean.

    What's the RD? -20 something?

    They still have a few games to lose to get to what their record probably should be. I say ATL takes 2 of 3. Then they'll sweep the Cards, and then lose 5 or 6 in a row again.

    Just a very streaky, average team.
    An average team that has played well enough at times to stay in the hunt into the 1st week in August. They were the recepents of strong performances by Hatteburg, Ross, Philips, et al and that has helped the team to overcome it's weaknesses to a certian degree.

    Maybe because we're so close it's more frustrating for some, but I'm pleased that we aren't where the experts said would be (ie 5th place). Because we've been bouyed by some steller play to cover up weaknesses the outcome of the year is hard to predict the outcome. They could all get hot again and have a two week strech that jolts them into 1st place (like when we swept the cards and stros earlier this year). They could continue to yo-yo and end up just in the money or just out. They could still implode.

    Kriv has tied his horses to these particular players (baring more trades) to get us into the post season without mortgaging the future to win now. We've seen times where they've played like this earlier in the season, but because it's August, and we're actually in the race for once, it just seems more dire.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  11. #10
    Will post for food BuckeyeRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone find it ironic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner
    An average team that has played well enough at times to stay in the hunt into the 1st week in August. They were the recepents of strong performances by Hatteburg, Ross, Philips, et al and that has helped the team to overcome it's weaknesses to a certian degree.

    Maybe because we're so close it's more frustrating for some, but I'm pleased that we aren't where the experts said would be (ie 5th place). Because we've been bouyed by some steller play to cover up weaknesses the outcome of the year is hard to predict the outcome. They could all get hot again and have a two week strech that jolts them into 1st place (like when we swept the cards and stros earlier this year). They could continue to yo-yo and end up just in the money or just out. They could still implode.

    Kriv has tied his horses to these particular players (baring more trades) to get us into the post season without mortgaging the future to win now. We've seen times where they've played like this earlier in the season, but because it's August, and we're actually in the race for once, it just seems more dire.
    Many of the experts and many here on RedsZone thought we were a .500 club, prior to the first game played, and they and we were right. What helps is that the rest of the league is .500 or losing and one team is winning a bunch. We could very easily be in 4th or 5th place right now.

    We have been extremely lucky, and I'm glad the rest of the league has laid down for us, but it doesn't change the fact that this team is nothing extraordinary.

    I think sometimes, we as fans, see our team as better than they really are. There's nothing really wrong with that. It's human nature. Anyway, every team has guys like "Hatteburg, Ross, Philips, et al", that step up and overachieve for parts, if not all of seasons.

  12. #11
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    Re: Anyone find it ironic?

    Like it or not, this season has been a BLAST for me....it's the first time in my short memory (I'm only 17) that the reds have even been remotely successful.....however, I have tried to tell myself to not get too excited because they were bound to go through a stretch like this one that made it look like they had no chance to make it to the playoffs.....

    Although it may be disappointing to watch this team right now, almost everyone knows that they will go through a streak where almost everyone hits, we pitch well, and we almost seem unbeatable for about a ten game stretch. That is what makes this team a lot more fun to watch than teams of years past....the POTENTIAL to win a lot of games. At the end of last year, I was surprised when the team won a game....now I'm disappointed when they lose.....

    I'm just glad that I can care at this point in the season.....
    This will not change until the Reds win the World Series.......

    April 28, 2006.

  13. #12
    This one's for you Edd Heath's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone find it ironic?

    a very average team in a very average year in a very average National League.

    At least we aren't Pittsburgh or Chicago, or even Washington.

    Everyone else is alive in the chase. Bud Selig's got his wish for the wild card.

    It's been fun - we'll see come September.
    Some people play baseball. Baseball plays Jay Bruce.

  14. #13
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    Re: Anyone find it ironic?

    I guess we'll see what happens over the next 7 games, but this is such an important stretch. It'll tell a lot.

  15. #14
    This one's for you Edd Heath's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone find it ironic?

    oh btw, finding things ironic always reminds me of Alanis Morrisette.
    Some people play baseball. Baseball plays Jay Bruce.

  16. #15
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    Re: Anyone find it ironic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor
    ...or maybe (JUST MAYBE) this team wasn't very good but had a lot of players that played way above their heads (see: Coffey, Todd; Phillips, Brandon; Ross, David; Arroyo, Bronson; Hatteberg, Scott) in the first half that, when combined with a generally lackluster NL, led people to believe this team was better than it really was.
    You make a good point, but all those guys you have mentioned have played very well since the break with the exception of Arroyo, who isn't terrible either.

    Phillips had a slump but busted out of it. The name you forgot was GRIFFEY!


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