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Thread: Organizational Pitching Problems?

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    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Organizational Pitching Problems?

    How many pitchers have said, "I'm ok" only to have them turn up injured?

    How many times has Doc K said, "pitcher XYZ is doing great" only to have them return to the roster 180 days later?

    How many times has a pitcher been accused of tipping his pitches when they have a rough spot?

    How many hot prospects have dissapeared into the Reds minor league system never to reappear?

    Why don't Reds pitcher seem too interested in pitching on the inside 1/2 of the plate?

    It makes you wonder whether a review of anybody in the orginization that interacts with pitchers is in order? Everybody from the bull-pen coaches, to the minor leauge pitching coaches, to Mark Mann, to Doc K himself should be reviewed to see if there is something inherrant to the Reds orginization that is exaserbating these issues and encouraging pitchers to keep pitching despite something being noticeably wrong.

    I don't even know what this "review" would entail, but it is an area I think deserves some attention in the offseason.

    If you want to continue to argue the Majewski arm situation, please post in that thread. I'd like to discuss possible organizational pitching problems on this thread.
    Last edited by Ltlabner; 08-08-2006 at 04:31 PM.
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    Re: Organizational Pitching Problems?

    I don't know if it's all that or not. Basically, it boils down to a lack of talent. All pitchers get injured at some time or another. I don't know if more teams have more injuries than others or not. I'd bet not. I think the "problems" people think the Reds have with pitching in the majors and in the minors as would be fixed with better pitchers, not better doctors. I believe the issues with "pitcher xyz is doing great" only to return 180 days later is something that happens with all teams, not just the Reds. Heck, look at Liriano up in Minnesota. He's fine, they say. No, he's just gonna miss one start. Oh wait, he's on the DL.

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    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: Organizational Pitching Problems?

    I've wondered this season if this isn't a baseball wide problem. I don't have time to expound on that thought, but I think MLB is desperate to find a way to develop better pitching. Of course, it has occurred to me that might want to raise the mound back to it's 1968 height (or was it '67?).

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    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Organizational Pitching Problems?

    I had arthroscopic surgery performed on me by Dr. Kremchek (during Rijo's last year with the Reds), and I came away very unimpressed. First of all, his ego was enormous. All he talked about was all the famous athletes that he claimed to be friends with he had performed surgery on. And most importantly (to me, anyway), I have nowhere near the range of motion I'm supposed to have in my shoulder after the surgery (despite being "ahead of schedule" during the entire physical therapy).

    I don't know how everyone's grading Dr. Kremchek, but I think people should evaluate the before-and-after stats of his patients and compare them to other doctors. I have a feeling that Dr. Kremchek is considered to be a good surgeon based on his credentials and educational background instead of actually looking at his results.

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    Passion for the game Team Clark's Avatar
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    Re: Organizational Pitching Problems?

    Quote Originally Posted by camisadelgolf
    I had arthroscopic surgery performed on me by Dr. Kremchek (during Rijo's last year with the Reds), and I came away very unimpressed. First of all, his ego was enormous. All he talked about was all the famous athletes that he claimed to be friends with he had performed surgery on. And most importantly (to me, anyway), I have nowhere near the range of motion I'm supposed to have in my shoulder after the surgery (despite being "ahead of schedule" during the entire physical therapy).

    I don't know how everyone's grading Dr. Kremchek, but I think people should evaluate the before-and-after stats of his patients and compare them to other doctors. I have a feeling that Dr. Kremchek is considered to be a good surgeon based on his credentials and educational background instead of actually looking at his results.
    Could be true. The more stories I hear the more it makes me take a pause. I know that he has done plenty of good work to be rightly considered one of the best. By the same token, Casey and an OF from the Indians whose name I can not remember were seriosuly misdiagnosed a few years ago costing them both dearly. Like I say to a lot of friends... "Doctors only PRACTICE Medicine, they can not perform miracles". I'd still let him work on me.
    It's absolutely pathetic that people can't have an opinion from actually watching games and supplementing that with stats. If you voice an opinion that doesn't fit into a black/white box you will get completely misrepresented and basically called a tobacco chewing traditionalist...
    Cedric 3/24/08

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    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Organizational Pitching Problems?

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Clark
    Could be true. The more stories I hear the more it makes me take a pause. I know that he has done plenty of good work to be rightly considered one of the best. By the same token, Casey and an OF from the Indians whose name I can not remember were seriosuly misdiagnosed a few years ago costing them both dearly. Like I say to a lot of friends... "Doctors only PRACTICE Medicine, they can not perform miracles". I'd still let him work on me.
    Are you thinking of Matt Lawton? I think Doc cut on him while he was an Indian. But maybe I'm remembering incorrectly.
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    Re: Organizational Pitching Problems?

    Kremchek took a look at my wrist in December of 2004 after breaking it in 3 places. Surprisingly enough, his course of action was the least aggressive approach. I went with a different guy, got a screw put into my wrist, and was swinging a club in March 2005, rather than the June/July 2005 timetable on which K put me.

    Not sure how this relates to the Reds, or arm problems in the organization, except to say that maybe Kremchek is actually on the conservative side of the recovery coin.

    Maybe the Reds need to send more guys down to Dr. Andrews in Alabama.

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    Re: Organizational Pitching Problems?

    I think it's a baseball-wide problem and to the extent it has hit the Reds more than other teams (which I'm not sure if it has or not), I'd attribute it to bad luck.

    One thing that should be part of the SOP is that ANY time a (starting) pitcher can't get out of the first two innings, injury should be the immediate suspicion. Pitchers (especially major league ones) don't usually give up huge innings unless they are hurt. 90% of the time a Reds' starter has gotten bombed in the first inning they have turned up injured within the next month. EZ, Claussen and Wilson (and Milton's knee) are some recent examples that come to mind. Maybe we could have gotten them back sooner (or done less damage) by shutting them down sooner instead of continuing to start them.

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    Re: Organizational Pitching Problems?

    One of my friends said same thing about Dr. K. friends son saw Dr. K he said I can do surgery but you will still have some pain so they went to Dr. Andrews he did surgery and he has no pain. A buddy of the sons had same operation close to same time as Aaron by Dr. K. and he has no feeling in his fingers. So maybe they need to check other options.

  11. #10
    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
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    Re: Organizational Pitching Problems?

    The organizational pitching problems are certainly not Doc Hollywood's fault. Those problems stem from an organizational-wide culture, encompassing at least 50 years, and all levels of the organization, of not scouting, signing, developing and coaching pitching properly. woy had a great article on this in Baseball Minutia.

    The Reds do well (and have for years) at developing and providing MLB with position players, and men that have pop in their bat. Mostly, our pitching come from other teams that develop it themselves, and then trade it to us for some of our excess bats.

    I think Kriv is going to try to change this culture, since he has spent the last 25 years in just the opposite culture, one that valued pitching over all else. I think that's fine, but if the Reds are going to continue to play in GABP, they certainly will need to out-thump the other teams on a regular basis, and choose pitchers who can throw ground ball outs rather than fly ball outs, much as Duncan and LaRussa have tried to do with the Cardinals.

    I'm going to defend the Doc a little bit here, as I do work in the field. He has a ginormous ego, no question about that. He's a fine surgeon, no question about that, either. Is he the best? Probably not, and that's no knock against him. It's really hard to grade doctors, because there are so very many ways of doing the right thing.

    Sometimes not doing surgery is the right thing to do. Often, rushing to surgery is the wrong thing to do. Aggressive surgery, meaning surgery done too soon, when sometimes more conservative measures will work, will often induce scar tissue into the area that restricts range of motion, and one will truly never be the same. The human body has amazing capabilities to heal itself, if given time. We live in a society now where everything is demanded Faster, faster, faster. Sometimes, slower and more conservative will give better long term results. No surgeon alive can improve on the work of the Master.

    Not everything can be fixed, either. On the other hand, being too conservative is also sometimes the wrong thing to do. That is the art of a practice. It's so easy to look at one case and say, yep, "Doc screwed that up, he must be terrible." Instead, much like a big league hitter or pitcher, one needs to look at the entire body of work to grade a surgeon, not just one good or one bad case. One doesn't get to be in Kremchek's position by just knowing the right people, or even by training with the right people. He is an excellent surgeon. But he is still Doc Hollywood.

    I have a theory on why so many pitchers are hurt these days, and it's because of technology. With CT scans and MRI, especially, which can show soft tissue damage and even inflammmatory changes, medical types are now able to diagnose problems much more accurately than 30 years ago, say. So, pitchers are not actually hurt more these days, it's just that they are diagnosed more accurately. Plus, back in the day, there were 8 teams in each league. A pitcher went down, and there were a lot of guys you could plug into that spot. Now with so many teams, it seems as if pitching is thin. Well, it is. Not many arms can stand the rigors of throwing a baseball to big league standards. Some guys that are drafted and have great stuff never pan out, because their arms give out. Not their fault, not a doctor's fault, they just do not have the genetic capabilty to stress their arm, shoulder and elbow constantly, to such a degree.

    There's a reason why pitchers don't throw 300 innings anymore, and why there are no longer 4 man rotations, and it's not because these young guys are wimpy or soft. It's because the technology has shown the arm damage that can result from this type of overwork, and guys get shut down regularly now in order to avoid the damage that will show up on the scan. The monetary and legal risks are so much higher now than they ever have been, and no one wants to shoulder that blame, nor should they. Throwing a baseball with an overhand motion 90 mph, while twisting the wrist or elbow to make it move, is a highly unnatural and stressful movement, and it always will be.

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    Re: Organizational Pitching Problems?

    Quote Originally Posted by Always Red
    Plus, back in the day, there were 8 teams in each league. A pitcher went down, and there were a lot of guys you could plug into that spot. Now with so many teams, it seems as if pitching is thin. Well, it is.
    Not really. The U.S. population has nearly doubled since the early 60's when there were 8 teams in each league -- roughly the same proportion of increase in teams (16 to 30) as there has been in the population (175 to 300 million). Then considering how baseball has expanded dramatically to include foreign and minority players (and how athletic development leagues are much more developed these days), the supply of pitchers today is much greater than it was in the past.

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    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
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    Re: Organizational Pitching Problems?

    Quote Originally Posted by terminator
    Not really. The U.S. population has nearly doubled since the early 60's when there were 8 teams in each league -- roughly the same proportion of increase in teams (16 to 30) as there has been in the population (175 to 300 million). Then considering how baseball has expanded dramatically to include foreign and minority players (and how athletic development leagues are much more developed these days), the supply of pitchers today is much greater than it was in the past.
    terminator, I see your point, but yet the number of minor league teams is vastly less now than in the 50's and 60's. Nowadays, each team has what, 5 minor league teams? Back in the "bad old days" some teams had many, many more than that. For instance, the Brooklyn Dodgers had over 20 minor league teams from 1946-1950. All of these teams, some more loosely affiliated with the Dodgeers than others, were professionally trying to develop pitching. Many more arms available for many fewer spots in the rotation.

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    Firin Away Jr's Boy's Avatar
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    Re: Organizational Pitching Problems?

    Say what you will about Doc K.but the surgery he did on Junior with the hamstring was the first of its kind I believe.And a success at that.

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    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
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    Re: Organizational Pitching Problems?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jr's Boy
    Say what you will about Doc K.but the surgery he did on Junior with the hamstring was the first of its kind I believe.And a success at that.
    Exactly right, Junior. It's a miracle, in a way, that Griffey can still run at all.

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    Re: Organizational Pitching Problems?

    I have a theory on why so many pitchers are hurt these days, and it's because of technology. With CT scans and MRI, especially, which can show soft tissue damage and even inflammmatory changes, medical types are now able to diagnose problems much more accurately than 30 years ago, say. So, pitchers are not actually hurt more these days, it's just that they are diagnosed more accurately. Plus, back in the day, there were 8 teams in each league. A pitcher went down, and there were a lot of guys you could plug into that spot. Now with so many teams, it seems as if pitching is thin. Well, it is. Not many arms can stand the rigors of throwing a baseball to big league standards. Some guys that are drafted and have great stuff never pan out, because their arms give out. Not their fault, not a doctor's fault, they just do not have the genetic capabilty to stress their arm, shoulder and elbow constantly, to such a degree.
    30 years ago is an interesting cutoff. You can adjust it how you want. 30 years ago was 1976. In 1977 the league expanded to 26 teams.

    36 years ago, Wayne Simpson pitched like God himself...for 18 starts and then he got hurt and essentially vanished. Medical care doesn't make young pitchers worse, it keeps hurt pitchers in the game because they heal.

    Much is made of the historical division caused by Babe Ruth. Pitchers pre-Ruth had the luxury of only throwing hard a couple times a game. That's why they were able to pile up such enormous quantities of innings. Post Ruth, there were several batters in each game that pitchers had to bear down on.

    I believe with the explosion of offense in the 90's and such we have crossed that same kind of historical rubicon. I think instead of every lineup containing one or two batters with power where a pitcher had to really bear down, there are now 5-7 or more good batters in every lineup.

    Pretty easy to see and test. Go back that 30 years, lets take the team that matched up with the big red machine in 75. The Red Sox were considered a very good team and a very good offensive team. How many good hitters are in that lineup? How many guys come to the plate and you're afraid they'll crack out a homer or a double? Fisk, Yaz, Lynn, Evans Rice and Cooper. A couple of guys on the bench, but ..., well, they're on the bench. That's a DH lineup with 6 good hitters. They have gloves at 2nd, 3rd and short.

    Compare that with last year's White Sox. All the press talked about was their pitching, defense and ability to manufacture runs. Now, the offense really revolved around three run homers, but the press wouldn't have you think that. How many guys come to the plate and you're afraid they'll crack out a homer or a double? Pretty much everybody except Posednek, the leadoff hitter.

    Nobody thinks of the White Sox shortsop, Juan Uribe as an offensive powerhouse. The only members of the 75 Red Sox with more home runs than Uribe were Rice and Lynn.

    Pitchers have to pitch to that. Instead of one or two guys in each lineup having power, now they all do. Guys are being asked to work fewer innings, but they are working much harder in each inning they throw. It's that strain, the strain of working each batter, that's causing injuries.

    Add onto that, the offensive philosophy of taking pitches to make the pitcher work harder and the addition of armor to crowd the pitcher out of the inside corner of the plate, and it's amazing guys aren't getting hurt even more than they are across baseball.

    Specifically with respect to the reds...this is a problem that's gone across several GM's and managers and pitching coaches and owners and now even parks. Guys do hide injuries here. Starting pitching doesn't develop here. I'm not sure why it is or who's to blame.
    Last edited by dfs; 08-24-2006 at 03:33 PM.


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