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Thread: Learn From This, Krivsky

  1. #1
    Winning the Human Race TheBigLebowski's Avatar
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    Learn From This, Krivsky

    Of the multitude of relievers we've acquired in the past 2 months, many have been injured...some of those injuries were serious.

    Gary Majewski, Eddie Guardado, Scott Schoenweis, and Rheal Cormier were damaged goods when they came over.

    Bear in mind we dealt off Austin Kearns, Felipe Lopez, Travis Chick, and the former 1st round pick (whom I realize many postulate will never amount to anything) Ryan Wagner to get these guys.

    Wayne, my boy, firstly....

    I hope you learn to not overpay for middle relief ever again. Let's take a step back here for just a second, and examine how a pitcher ends up in "middle relief." The guy obviously does not have the stuff or the stamina to start and he, at least at this point in his career, has not demonstrated that he has the stuff or the mental makeup to close. Therefore, you're not likely to be acquiring the next Sandy Koufax when you trade for a Bill Bray. While these guys certainly have value, let's not ship off very valuable, young starters for Gary Majewski and Bill Bray again, even if they have Minnesota ties.

    Secondly....

    The medical history and current physical condition of the pitchers you seek to acquire should be of great interest. This statement is so self-evident that it bears no further explanation.

    Thirdly....

    Let's not overreact the next time our sitting manager is up for an extension, and let's examine more than just a win/loss record in determining said manager's worth.

    Fourthly....

    (This one dovetails with #2) Your roster management skills are abhorrent. You're handcuffing a manager with already questionable roster management skills of his own by bringing over waves of players who are eligible for medicare. These mistakes are mistakes I doubt we will see from you again.

    Lastly....

    Allow me to again praise you on the Phillips, Arroyo, Hatteberg, Ross, and (surprisingly) Lohse acquisitions. You've earned some political capital with this fanbase; Dan O'Brien would have been run out of town on a stake if he authored "The Trade." We can sense a shrewdness in you and a desire to win. We can look towards the future with confidence in you. Now, please give us an off-season to remember, regardless of the disposition of this season.

    Go get 'em, Wayne.
    Last edited by TheBigLebowski; 08-19-2006 at 10:35 PM.
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  3. #2
    Oy Vey! Red in Chicago's Avatar
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    Re: Learn From This, Krivsky

    eddie may have been damaged, but he's been very effective for the most part...

  4. #3
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Learn From This, Krivsky

    Overall good points but I think Bray will be a very good pitcher down the line. Funny thing is most of the trades look to mean more next season than this year although the Reds line is that the moves were to win this year. Look at the ERAs, WHIPS and pitching lines of the guys now on the staff and what we had early on - it surprised me how much better overall it is. Certainly not a good bullpen yet but much better poised going into the winter to make additions, none of Krivsky's moves bother me except the trade with the Nats looks weaker all the time and I was a defender at first. I just don't think he hyas done a thing for the run at it this year. The players he has added can be easily jettisoned if they don't pan out. They were very low cost in terms of money and talent spent. Lohse may be a Phillips-like acquisition needing a change of scenery to wake him up or restart him or he may just be having a temporary fling through the league once around but the deal looks better than I ever thought it would so far. Castellini may want to win now but everything I see from these deals points more to next year and down the line than this year. All the stop gap cheap acquisitions to plug holes temporarily, dumping a couple talented players that I think Krivsky didn't think fit his "mold", while picking up some players that may have a good future but aren't quite ready to be strong forces yet (Lohse, Bray, Harris, Thompson) and you have to wonder if Kriv knew Cormier and Schoenweis were cheap because they were about to go down but figures they can contribute next year. He hasn't even hinted about any problem with their deals like he has about Maj's problems. I think Krivsky has made some mistakes, may have started out a bit too aggressive but he is shrewd, has guts and vision and will learn a lot this first year at the helm of his own ship.

  5. #4
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    Re: Learn From This, Krivsky

    The spirit of the initial post in this thread is dead on. In the end, it doesn't matter what any of us says, Wayne's going to be back next season, so all we can hope for is for him to learn and grow.

  6. #5
    Winning the Human Race TheBigLebowski's Avatar
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    Re: Learn From This, Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
    The spirit of the initial post in this thread is dead on. In the end, it doesn't matter what any of us says, Wayne's going to be back next season, so all we can hope for is for him to learn and grow.
    What you did not say in that post speaks volumes. Are you really that down on WK?
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    RZ Chamber of Commerce Unassisted's Avatar
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    Re: Learn From This, Krivsky

    I just had the epiphany today (thanks to MWM) that Wayne didn't trade Lopez and Kearns for MR help. He traded them so he would have money to spend on players who were a better fit next spring, instead of handing those guys bags of cash to avoid arbitration. You can't judge that trade until you see what the bags of cash that would have gone to Kearns and Lopez next spring are spent on.

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    Re: Learn From This, Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBigLebowski
    What you did not say in that post speaks volumes. Are you really that down on WK?
    Do you live under a rock? Just kidding, but yes he is. He wants him out as bad as I want Narron out, and that is pretty bad.

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    Re: Learn From This, Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by Unassisted
    I just had the epiphany today (thanks to MWM) that Wayne didn't trade Lopez and Kearns for MR help. He traded them so he would have money to spend on players who were a better fit next spring, instead of handing those guys bags of cash to avoid arbitration. You can't judge that trade until you see what the bags of cash that would have gone to Kearns and Lopez next spring are spent on.
    That is true. But a bigger return could have been netted in many's opinions, and you would still be saving money.

  10. #9
    Member top6's Avatar
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    Re: Learn From This, Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by Unassisted
    I just had the epiphany today (thanks to MWM) that Wayne didn't trade Lopez and Kearns for MR help. He traded them so he would have money to spend on players who were a better fit next spring, instead of handing those guys bags of cash to avoid arbitration. You can't judge that trade until you see what the bags of cash that would have gone to Kearns and Lopez next spring are spent on.
    Well, nobody is or was really against the idea of trading them per se, they were and are against the idea of trading them for middle relievers.

    The problem, I think, is that Wayne K wanted to trade them, but didn't have the balls to trade them for prospects when the Reds were in the middle of a pennant race, albeit a race only made possible by a weak National League this year. Had he traded them for 3-5 solid prospects (either from one team, or in two separate trades), the Reds would have been much better off in the long run (and only slightly worse off in the short run), but the casual fan would have been outraged, since it would seem like another firesale. So he traded them for something even a casual fan could see the Reds needed, which made the Reds marginally better in the short run.

    I agree that Wayne K obviously didn't see a future here for Kearns and Lopez, and he didn't want to pay them. That's fine, and I am starting to agree with that, but I refuse to believe he got maximum value for them, since he was handcuffed by the notion that he had to get immediate help rather than long term value.

    The other reason the trade was terrible was that he felt the need to bring in Royce Clayton, which I think speaks for itself.

  11. #10
    You know his story Redsland's Avatar
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    Re: Learn From This, Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by Unassisted
    I just had the epiphany today (thanks to MWM) that Wayne didn't trade Lopez and Kearns for MR help. He traded them so he would have money to spend on players who were a better fit next spring, instead of handing those guys bags of cash to avoid arbitration. You can't judge that trade until you see what the bags of cash that would have gone to Kearns and Lopez next spring are spent on.
    I disagree. Wayne made the trade to win now. He wanted to shore up the worst bullpen in baseball and firm up the defense on the left side of the infield.

    Yes it saved some money for next year. Yes it included some "prospects." But the trade can absolutely be evaluated this year, because this is the year it was meant to impact.
    Makes all the routine posts.

  12. #11
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Learn From This, Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by Red in Chicago
    eddie may have been damaged, but he's been very effective for the most part...
    but I would not be surprised if he is done. He's had a week off twice recently and with that rest the problem has still only gotten worse.
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  13. #12
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Learn From This, Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by Unassisted
    I just had the epiphany today (thanks to MWM) that Wayne didn't trade Lopez and Kearns for MR help. He traded them so he would have money to spend on players who were a better fit next spring, instead of handing those guys bags of cash to avoid arbitration. You can't judge that trade until you see what the bags of cash that would have gone to Kearns and Lopez next spring are spent on.
    And then he promptly spent about 2.5 million of that savings on old man Cormier for 2007. He also acquired Lohse, who is arb eligible, making 4 million this year.
    If they bring back Lohse next year, that pretty much blows all the money that Kearns and Lopez would've made next year.. Maybe there'd be a million or two left, but there's not going to be significant money "saved" from these trades Wayne made. Also, we need to acquire another middle infielder to replace Lopez, and we should acquire a better 4th OF.

    Note: I'm not saying bringing back Lohse is bad (I'm undecided), but the point is that we aren't likely to have a financial windfall from dumping Kearns and Lopez.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!


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