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View Poll Results: 3rd base coach: should get caught sending 'em home sometimes?

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    35 77.78%
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Thread: 3rd base coaching...

  1. #1
    Member Wheelhouse's Avatar
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    3rd base coaching...

    Al Hrbosky: "You're not doing your job at third unless you get a guy thrown out at home occasionally." As for me, I disagree, but I think it's an interesting question. Also, makes me think how good Mark Berry is at his job...
    "Don't trust any statistics you did not fake yourself."--Winston Churchill

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  3. #2
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    Re: 3rd base coaching...

    If you always make the right play, no one gets thrown out.

  4. #3
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: 3rd base coaching...

    Quote Originally Posted by AvesIce51
    If you always make the right play, no one gets thrown out.
    It's a game played by people, and coached by people.

    When the league starts that every decison is always right and nothing wrong ever happens count me out.

    Humans make the game and humans make mistakes.

  5. #4
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    Re: 3rd base coaching...

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    It's a game played by people, and coached by people.

    When the league starts that every decison is always right and nothing wrong ever happens count me out.

    Humans make the game and humans make mistakes.
    Couldn't agree more, but I think the question is, and maybe I was unclear--Is a third base coach doing his job BETTER if every once in a while a guy gets thrown out at home. In other words, should a coach be pushing the envelope to the degree that runners get thrown out on his watch sometimes.

    If baseball were a timed sport, I would agree, but it is a game of finite outs, so I disagree.
    "Don't trust any statistics you did not fake yourself."--Winston Churchill

  6. #5
    Bunn-O-matic max venable's Avatar
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    Re: 3rd base coaching...

    Totally agree that your guys should be getting gunned down sometimes. It means you're a risk-taker...no risk, no reward. I'd much rather have my guy taking an aggressive approach over conservative approach.
    For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism.

  7. #6
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: 3rd base coaching...

    Is a third base coach doing his job BETTER if every once in a while a guy gets thrown out at home. In other words, should a coach be pushing the envelope to the degree that runners get thrown out on his watch sometimes.
    If he makes the other team make a perfect play then I don't care, if the ball is at the plate and the guys is still 2/3rds of the way down the line I'd be bummed. If that happened more then it should then I'm worried about the 3rd base coaches decision processing... like whe that one older gent manned 3rd for the Reds in the McKeon era.. the horror, the horror...

  8. #7
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    Re: 3rd base coaching...

    In general I'd agree with this statement. A 3rd base coach should be agressive in the right situations. I don't mean doing stupid stuff, but taking a risk here and there and putting pressure on the other team is a good thing IMO. Especially if he has a player he knows can make the play if given the opportunity. If you're too conservative you'll miss scoring opportunties.

    I think Joe Morgan said something to the effect of, "you gotta be willing to get thrown out once in a while to steal bases".

    But again, agressive and stupid are two different things.
    Last edited by Ltlabner; 08-27-2006 at 02:34 PM.
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    Re: 3rd base coaching...

    Of course some should get throw out. Pretty fundamental baseball.

    Example: if you think a player has a 90% chance of scoring, you send him, even though you will get thrown out 10% of the time.If you hold him up in that situation, you're playing losing baseball.

    There's very few times when there's absolutely no risk. If you simply wait for those chances, you'll score way less than anyone else.

    With 2 outs, you should probably send a runner if it's 50/50, unless you trail by lots late in the game.

    If a third base coach never gets anyone thrown out, he's either psychic or terrible.

  10. #9
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    Re: 3rd base coaching...

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig
    Of course some should get throw out. Pretty fundamental baseball.

    Example: if you think a player has a 90% chance of scoring, you send him, even though you will get thrown out 10% of the time.If you hold him up in that situation, you're playing losing baseball.

    There's very few times when there's absolutely no risk. If you simply wait for those chances, you'll score way less than anyone else.

    With 2 outs, you should probably send a runner if it's 50/50, unless you trail by lots late in the game.

    If a third base coach never gets anyone thrown out, he's either psychic or terrible.
    I don't think anyone would say "never." But for instance, there are Cards fans who feel Oquendo is a little too agressive. Same could be said of Oester. Do you send a guy when he has a 50% chance of scoring? Cause if you could score the next at bat with a hit, it might bring in two runs if a runner is at second...It ain't an easy job--the baseball instinct of a 3B coach has to be superb...
    "Don't trust any statistics you did not fake yourself."--Winston Churchill

  11. #10
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    Re: 3rd base coaching...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wheelhouse
    I don't think anyone would say "never."
    Yeah, in this case you can say "never".

    If you never get anyone throw out, you are running only on 100% chances. Does anyone really think you shouldn't try if your chances are 95%? Because if you try on 95% chances, you will get thrown out occasionally.

    THis doesn't mean that you run at will. But if your chances of scoring is better than your chances of scoring later, you try now.

  12. #11
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    Re: 3rd base coaching...

    Lets just say there are two outs;

    If its 50/50 and you go then your chances of making it are obviously 50%

    If its 50/50 and you stay. The next batter has a roughly 35% to 40% chance of not making an out. (Even lower of getting a hit, which unless the bases are loaded is the only thing that gets a run home in that particular situation.)

    So yeah, I don't want a whole lot of guys getting gunned but anything above 50% and I want them running.
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  13. #12
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    Re: 3rd base coaching...

    MGL did a study a couple of years ago and its conclusion stated something along the lines that 3rd base coaches did not take nearly enough chances...the payoff was much higher in the area of taking the risk than not (player left on 3rd).

    When you think about it --perception wise we complain in a big way when a player gets thrown out at the plate --we talk about it for the next day or 2 --yet, when a player is stranded at 3rd it doesn't stay with us as long even though he has just as much value as the player who was thrown out (none).

    Greg Easterbrook in his TMQ column talks at lenght about how NFL coaches make the same kind of decisions --they payoff on risk taking would be high, but they often take the safe choice (though it may costs more than the risk) because perception is a bitc*. Rarely do you see a NFL team lineup 11 guys to block a punt --it's almost and understanding among NFL coaches....so you see a lot of punts with fair catches --the perceived risk in the punting game scares them to death --so they take safe choices.

    The 3rd base coach (imo) does the same thing --"nobody gets fired for holding runners at 3rd". It's risk management at it's worst.

  14. #13
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: 3rd base coaching...

    I do not think any third base coach is going to get runners thrown out at home just to make it look like he is aggressive. That is just going to happen naturally. Sometimes you will get guys thrown out and sometimes they will score.

    3rd base coach is a tough gig. Probably tougher than the manager. When he has to make a decision on whether to send a runner he has got to take several things into account. He has to know what the score and situation is; he has to know how hard the ball was hit; who is running; who is catching; who is the outfielder, what kind of arm he has; whether he thinks the throw is going through; any other baserunners, etc. Then there are the variables that are out of your control like whether the baserunner slipped going around 2nd or 3rd. Or whether he goes through your stop sign or stays at third on his own.

    But common sense should prevail. I remember when Boone was managing, Foli would continuously send Casey home and get him thrown out. Used to drive me crazy. Being aggressive is all well and good but when you have a guy like Casey running, you treat him differently than a guy like Brandon Phillips.
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  15. #14
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    Re: 3rd base coaching...

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou
    If he makes the other team make a perfect play then I don't care, if the ball is at the plate and the guys is still 2/3rds of the way down the line I'd be bummed. If that happened more then it should then I'm worried about the 3rd base coaches decision processing... like whe that one older gent manned 3rd for the Reds in the McKeon era.. the horror, the horror...
    I completely agree with this. My comment was kind of sarcastic.

    I think the post made it sounds like you should intentionally send guys that you don't think will make it.

  16. #15
    Passion for the game Team Clark's Avatar
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    Re: 3rd base coaching...

    Quote Originally Posted by AvesIce51
    I completely agree with this. My comment was kind of sarcastic.

    I think the post made it sounds like you should intentionally send guys that you don't think will make it.
    I did that once. I sent a runner on first to home on a ball in the gap. He was hung over... He barely made it to the plate and the catcher did a number on him when applying the tag. He pulled himself from the game in the next half inning during an AB. Upon arriving in the dugout he threw up everywhere. I did it to make a point. We were up 5 or 6 to 1 in the 6th. Do not show up to play hung over and set a bad example for those around you.
    It's absolutely pathetic that people can't have an opinion from actually watching games and supplementing that with stats. If you voice an opinion that doesn't fit into a black/white box you will get completely misrepresented and basically called a tobacco chewing traditionalist...
    Cedric 3/24/08


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