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Thread: GABP Changes

  1. #61
    Duranie Ho, Ho, Ho! KittyDuran's Avatar
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    Re: GABP Changes

    The previous poster was probably referring to the "Banks," the mess that does exist between the Freedom Center and the ballpark.
    Right now the Cirque Du Soleil is there [which looks kinda nice].
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  3. #62
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: GABP Changes

    I think BCast is chairing the group trying to get the Banks project out of the political morrass and back to life. So he might be able to use some of the Reds "clout" to get things done.

    Good luck to him.
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  4. #63
    "Let's Roll" TeamBoone's Avatar
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    Re: GABP Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by TeamBoone View Post
    In addition, a beer garden will be added between the batters eye and the misters under the smokestacks.
    Ooops! Between the Batters eye and the last group of seats down the 3rd base line, above the bullpen.
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  5. #64
    SERP Emeritus paintmered's Avatar
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    Re: GABP Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by dabvu2498 View Post
    The mess outside would be the "banks" area. Of course, the Reds have no control over this, but may have some political power to bear.

    For the record, I hate the stacks. Cartoonish.
    Castellini is wearing the biggest hat for the Banks project now. Interestingly, it's progressed farther in the few months he's been in charge than it has in the five previous years.

    But still, I'd be shocked to see any dirt being moved before 2008.
    What if this wasn't a rhetorical question?

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  6. #65
    Member ochre's Avatar
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    Re: GABP Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by paintmered View Post
    Castellini is wearing the biggest hat for the Banks project now. Interestingly, it's progressed farther in the few months he's been in charge than it has in the five previous years.

    But still, I'd be shocked to see any dirt being moved before 2008.
    Castellini and the riverfront, eh?

    Lindner kept stake in Castellini Co. quiet

    Financier owned firm during crucial land sale
    Cincinnati Business Courier - December 20, 2002
    by Lucy May and Dan Monk
    Courier Staff Reporters


    In days, one of the last remnants of Cincinnati's old riverfront, Cinergy Field, will be imploded, blown into a million tiny pieces on the shores of the Ohio River. The timing is ironic, coming just weeks after the discovery of a missing puzzle piece for how Cincinnati's new riverfront took shape.
    That puzzle piece was revealed Dec. 13 in an unlikely place, a one-page news release in which Chiquita Brands International Inc. announced it was selling its ownership stake in Greater Cincinnati's largest produce distribution firm, the Castellini Co., for $45 million. Chairman Robert Castellini and members of his management team bought the company back from Chiquita for $21 million in cash and assumption of debt.
    The news registered barely a blip on the business radar screen, a relatively small deal that will give Chiquita a $10 million gain and decrease its annual earnings before taxes, depreciation and amortization (EBITDA) by $8 million.
    What made the deal interesting was that Chiquita, controlled until this year by Cincinnati financier Carl Lindner, had never previously disclosed that it owned Castellini, despite years of speculation that the ownership ties existed. That speculation reached a peak in the late 1990s, when some observers felt Lindner influenced the siting of Paul Brown Stadium to force Hamilton County to acquire Castellini's riverfront land. The county paid $36.5 million for Castellini's 24-acre riverfront property in 1998, although county officials now say Lindner had no impact on the decision.
    Chiquita spokesman Michael Mitchell said Castellini got "the great bulk of the proceeds" from the land sale, since the real estate was owned by the Castellini family, not by the company.
    Mitchell said Chiquita received a small share of the proceeds related to the county's purchase of lease agreements involving the Castellini Co.
    Mitchell also said the banana company acquired "substantially all of the equity interest in Castellini" in 1988. Another news release, issued by Castellini Co., said Robert Castellini retained a majority of the voting stock.
    "There was voting stock, and there was nonvoting stock," said Mitchell. "(Robert Castellini) owned a majority of the voting shares."
    The voting stock gave Castellini control over the company's operations.
    Both companies and Lindner, through a spokeswoman, declined to say how the ownership arrangement came about or say why it was never disclosed.
    "It was not required under SEC disclosure rules," said Mitchell, "and we chose not to disclose it."
    What all of that means in the context of Cincinnati's reinvented riverfront remains murky. By the time Paul Brown Stadium gave Castellini a way out of his riverfront property, Castellini had tried to redevelop the land himself for nearly a decade, first proposing a floating entertainment complex, then a mixture of hotels, retail and housing. Hampering those efforts was the fact that much of Castellini's land was in a flood plain, making it more costly to develop.
    Nevertheless, Castellini was still working to develop the western riverfront when the Bengals began the stadium-development process by threatening to leave town in 1995. The Bengals' original goal was a new stadium located just west of the Roebling Suspension Bridge, a spot also coveted by the Cincinnati Reds, then owned by Marge Schott, with Lindner holding a minority stake.
    After intense negotiations among business leaders and a lengthy public planning process, city and county officials moved the Bengals west. The Reds moved east, making way for The Banks, a mixed-use development that city and county leaders hope will produce housing, retail, office buildings and a hotel on the land between the stadiums.
    Hamilton County Administrator David Krings said Lindner's ownership interest in the Castellini group had no impact on the county's stadium planning or negotiations. He said he wasn't even sure that he knew of Lindner's ownership stake. Other local business leaders, who did not want to be quoted, agreed with Krings that Lindner's ownership had no impact. Others aren't so sure.
    Rob Fredericks, a legislative aide to Hamilton County Commissioner John Dowlin, said former Commissioner Bob Bedinghaus changed his bargaining stance on the Castellini land after receiving a phone call from Lindner. Fredericks said he attended a meeting where Bedinghaus disclosed the call.
    Attorney Robert Manley, who represented several produce houses relocated by the Bengals' stadium project, said one of his clients told him Lindner directly negotiated Castellini's land sale with Bedinghaus. Manley said his client got that information from either Lindner or Bedinghaus. He wouldn't say which, nor would he identify the client.
    Bedinghaus declined to comment for this story, but a local business leader, who didn't want to be identified but was close to the negotiations, downplayed Lindner's influence.
    "I never saw his hand in that thing," he said.
    Whatever Lindner's involvement, this much has long been clear: The Bengals siting decision added millions to the project's price tag. It meant the county had to purchase more land than originally expected and grant the Bengals concessions, including the placement of the team's three practice fields on the western riverfront.
    Hamilton County initially budgeted $50 million for stadium land. In the end, it paid $68 million, including more than $1 million per acre for the Castellini property. The land-acquisition process also took longer than expected, forcing design changes and construction delays. The county once estimated moving Paul Brown Stadium further west added more than $100 million in stadium cost.
    When asked if it was worth it, Krings said, "I think that the region is getting an excellent riverfront that it wouldn't have had otherwise."
    Yet it has come at a cost the county continues to bear due to lower-than-expected sales tax revenues.
    "Sometimes leadership is painful," Krings said.
    4009



  7. #66
    "Let's Roll" TeamBoone's Avatar
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    Re: GABP Changes

    I remember reading a long long time ago (and no, I'm not going to take the time to try to find the article) that Bob Castellini offered to GIVE his riverfront property to the Reds, but that it took them such a long time to make a decision as to where they wanted to build, that he ended up selling it to Hamilton County for the Bengals stadium.
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  8. #67
    Member Jpup's Avatar
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    Re: GABP Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by dabvu2498 View Post
    The mess outside would be the "banks" area. Of course, the Reds have no control over this, but may have some political power to bear.
    exactly. it's awful. It takes a lot away from the walk across the river when coming from KY. It gives a bad impression for people that haven't been to the area before. The idea of planting grass and keeping it very manicured would be great.
    Last edited by Jpup; 09-07-2006 at 08:32 AM.
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  9. #68
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: GABP Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Jpup View Post
    exactly. it's awful. It takes a lot away from the walk across the river when coming from KY. It gives a bad impression for people that haven't been to the area before. The idea of planting grass and keeping it very manicured would be great.
    Like they could get anyone to agree on that. They would probably spend a year deciding what kind of grass to use and another year to interview companies to put the grass in. Then it would take another year to actually sod the thing.
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  10. #69
    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
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    Re: GABP Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    Like they could get anyone to agree on that. They would probably spend a year deciding what kind of grass to use and another year to interview companies to put the grass in. Then it would take another year to actually sod the thing.
    I never realized that growing grass was so complicated until the Bengals tried to do it.

    Politically seeded grass is the hardest kind to grow....

  11. #70
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: GABP Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    Like they could get anyone to agree on that. They would probably spend a year deciding what kind of grass to use and another year to interview companies to put the grass in. Then it would take another year to actually sod the thing.
    It's prob a thread for "Non-Baseball Chatter" but the amount of politicall inepitude in Cincinnati vis-a-vis the entire riverfront development process (especially when compared to the northern Kentucky side) is spectacular. As you said Chip, if someone proposed just making a beautifull "mall" type area out of the banks with grass, reflection pools, a walking path or whatnot would probably turn into a 10 year polticial cat fight chock full of law suits, protests, wild speculation, news conferences and plenty of local heek-hack.
    Last edited by Ltlabner; 09-07-2006 at 10:59 AM.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  12. #71
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: GABP Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    It's prob a thread for "Non-Baseball Chatter" but the amount of politicall inepitude in Cincinnati vis-a-vis the entire riverfront development process (especially when compared to the northern Kentucky side) is spectacular. As you said Chip, if someone proposed just making a beautifull "mall" type area out of the banks with grass, reflection pools, a walking path or whatnot would probably turn into a 10 year polticial cat fight chock full of law suits, protests, wild speculation, news conferences and plenty of local heek-hack.
    It probably would be a P thread but I don't think you can find anyone who would disagree with that assessment. It's just so odd that little old Newport, KY can do so much while big old Cincinnati can't walk and chew gum at the same time. Perhaps that's the benefit of being a smaller community. Less of an impediment to getting things done.

    But getting back to the ballpark, sure there are some things you'd like to tweak here and there but all in all it's a pretty nice place to watch a game.
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  13. #72
    Will post for food BuckeyeRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: GABP Changes

    Next time you are at a game and walking around the concession area behind the RF stands, take look towards the river. It ain't pretty.

    From the road to across it along the river bank is nothing but weeds. I know the Reds have nothing to do with this, but it's not a pretty picture. I took a couple pictures of it at the last game I went to (14-0 win over 'stros) and if I can even figure out how to post pics I'll put them in this thread. Yuck!

    Things I'd like to see improved:

    -Too much exposed concrete. Would rather see brick. This should be an easy fix.

    -Batter's eye and smoke stacks are cheesy. What are you gonna do? I can live with the smoke stacks, but I'd like to see them do something with the batter's eye. It looks like something you'd see in Williamsport, PA. Very little league-ish.

    -Wish they would have made an upper deck wrapped around the RF line for Dunn's shot to be deposited into. He can't hit the ball in the river (like Bonds in SF with the Bay), it's too far, so why have that so opened? It looks like the stadium was never completed. Too unbalanced. All that weight shifted to LF with the bleachers and it goes down hill all the way to the RF moondeck. I know they wanted to pay tribute to Crosley with the moon deck, but is there a way they could have done it without leaving the whole RF exposed to look like a minor league stadium? It's just not cozy. I love parks that make you feel like you are nestled in. GABP just seems way too open.

    -The notch. Nothing can be done, but it's pretty cheesy and I'm sure contributes to the wind tunnel that converts some routine fly balls into HR's.

    -The area arouind the stadium is weak. You have to cross I-71 to get to a the In-Between, which is all that is really there on the cincy side and you have to cross the bridge to Ky to get to the real action. Newport makes Cincy around the stadium look pretty weak. It's too bad you can't pick up Newprt and deposit it around GABP.

    -Clean up the area behind the stadium, along the river. As I mentioned below, it does not look good. I wish they could just close down that road (Mehring way), and make it a brick path with shops, restaurants, and bars on each side. You could even have some nice places, right on the river. Make it like Camden with nice places to go to after the game. Keep the $$ in Cincy and give people a reason to stick around after the game.

  14. #73
    "Let's Roll" TeamBoone's Avatar
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    Re: GABP Changes

    My comments are in bold:

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg View Post
    Next time you are at a game and walking around the concession area behind the RF stands, take look towards the river. It ain't pretty. I disagree; I think it's very pretty and even with the planned development, I hope they leave that relatively small area as is; I find it serene. (picture below)

    From the road to across it along the river bank is nothing but weeds. I know the Reds have nothing to do with this, but it's not a pretty picture. I took a couple pictures of it at the last game I went to (14-0 win over 'stros) and if I can even figure out how to post pics I'll put them in this thread. Yuck!

    Things I'd like to see improved:

    -Too much exposed concrete. Would rather see brick. This should be an easy fix. Take a look at the Jake... nothing but concrete. And where exactly would you suggest putting brick inside the stadium? There's not much empty space to utilize.

    -Batter's eye and smoke stacks are cheesy. Both of these are very subjective and not all feel the same way; ask 30 people and it would probably split close to 50/50. Granted, the BE isn't very asthetic, but I wouldn't call it cheesy. I like the smokestacks very much... again, subjective. What are you gonna do? I can live with the smoke stacks, but I'd like to see them do something with the batter's eye. From what I've read recently, it sounds like that's exactly what they're planning to do during the off season. It looks like something you'd see in Williamsport, PA. Very little league-ish. What exactly makes it "little league-ish"?

    -Wish they would have made an upper deck wrapped around the RF line for Dunn's shot to be deposited into. He can't hit the ball in the river (like Bonds in SF with the Bay), it's too far, so why have that so opened? It looks like the stadium was never completed. Too unbalanced. All that weight shifted to LF with the bleachers and it goes down hill all the way to the RF moondeck. I know they wanted to pay tribute to Crosley with the moon deck, but is there a way they could have done it without leaving the whole RF exposed to look like a minor league stadium? It's just not cozy. I love parks that make you feel like you are nestled in. GABP just seems way too open. Again, subjective. I actually prefer the open feeling that the GAB projects.

    -The notch. Nothing can be done, but it's pretty cheesy and I'm sure contributes to the wind tunnel that converts some routine fly balls into HR's. I love the gap; it's a great place to stand and watch the game.

    -The area arouind the stadium is weak. True; but then again, they are working on it... hopefully I see the result in my lifetime. You have to cross I-71 to get to a the In-Between, Untrue; the InBetween is on 3rd... walk across the street to 2nd and you're at the park. For games at Riverfront, you had to traverse the walkway over I-71 to get to the park, but no more. which is all that is really there on the cincy side and you have to cross the bridge to Ky to get to the real action. Newport makes Cincy around the stadium look pretty weak. It's too bad you can't pick up Newprt and deposit it around GABP.

    -Clean up the area behind the stadium, along the river. As I mentioned below, it does not look good. Oddly, I've never noticed this and I look at it often. I wish they could just close down that road (Mehring way), and make it a brick path with shops, restaurants, and bars on each side. Mehring Way is highly traveled during morning/evening rush by people going to/from work and parking in the garages/lots along that stretch. Therefore, I highly doubt that would ever happen. You could even have some nice places, right on the river. Make it like Camden with nice places to go to after the game. Keep the $$ in Cincy and give people a reason to stick around after the game. Again, that's what The Banks project is all about... but it's definitely not happening fast enough.
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  15. #74
    Yay! dabvu2498's Avatar
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    Re: GABP Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by TeamBoone View Post
    Untrue; the InBetween is on 3rd... walk across the street to 2nd and you're at the park. For games at Riverfront, you had to traverse the walkway over I-71 to get to the park, but no more.
    The In-Between is on 3rd. The block between 3rd and 2nd is filled with Ft. Washington Way (aka I-71). So you do have to cross-over I-71 to get from the In-Between to GABP. We've done it about 50 times this year on our way from the Skyline on Sycamore and 4th (walking right by the In-Between). Here's a map: http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp...%20Restaurants

    Next time you are at a game and walking around the concession area behind the RF stands, take look towards the river. It ain't pretty. I disagree; I think it's very pretty and even with the planned development, I hope they leave that relatively small area as is; I find it serene. (picture below)
    I believe the area he's referring to is closer to the Public Landing, which does look fairly rough.
    Last edited by dabvu2498; 09-07-2006 at 01:37 PM.
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  16. #75
    "Let's Roll" TeamBoone's Avatar
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    Re: GABP Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by dabvu2498 View Post
    The In-Between is on 3rd. The block between 3rd and 2nd is filled with Ft. Washington Way (aka I-71). So you do have to cross-over I-71 to get from the In-Between to GABP. We've done it about 50 times this year on our way from the Skyline on Sycamore and 4th (walking right by the In-Between).



    I believe the area he's referring to is closer to the Public Landing, which does look fairly rough.
    Well, we've never had any problem crossing the street to the park. There's a light and a crosswalk.

    The Public Landing is not behind the RF seats, but you're right, you can see it from there. I've never noticed that it looks awful.
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