Are the Reds better off without Griffey?

[jamess697]

After seeing Griffey get hurt in last nights game, it got me wondering if the Reds lineup is better off without Griffey in it (right now). He is killing us in center, and he is only hitting around .240-.250. This is killing us in the middle of the lineup. However I like Griffey and this isn't just a Griffey bashing, but is Deno better in the lineup, with Freel in center. Would you trade defense for a home run every 20 at bats. Just Asking?

[RollyInRaleigh]

Denorfia better in the lineup than Griffey? I have seen very little to make me believe that Denorfia is anything but a fourth outfielder at best.

[RedFanAlways1966]

Griffey to a corner OF spot is the best scenario IMO. His bat is still better in the lineup than any other non-starting option they have today. A down year at the plate (although one that would make many a-man a millionaire in MLB) for Junior. Will it continue? I don't know, but I am also not the type to throw a guy on the trash-heap b/c of one down year. He is still 2nd on the team in HRs despite missing about 30 games.

Make no mistake that opposing managers and pitchers still fear the Griffey bat. They know what it is capable of doing. He will never be the Griffey that gave life to a town called Seattle, but he is still a dangerous bat.

BTW... a nice way to ask this question. Others on this site could learn a thing or two about tact from your thread-opener. There is a right way and a wrong way to ask questions on all topics. Thanks for using some class in asking your question.

[Far East]

My wife in not a baseball fan, but she began to watch a few innings here and there since the last Cardinals' series, because my sons and I were so excited about the division race at that time. Here are a few of her observations; I'm trying to recall them as close to verbatum as I can.

1. Why don't they make Griffey use his whole body to swing like that guy (Hatteberg) does? Bend his knees a little bit instead of standing so straight and just swinging with his arms.

2. I don't like to watch him (Dunn) bat; I've never seen him hit one yet (She did not get to see Adam's recent 4 hit game). He just swings for homeruns, doesn't he? Don't the coaches tell him anything?

3. His (Griffey's) uniform is so neat and fits him so perfectly; he never gets dirty.

4. That one (Freel) has a crazy look in his eye. He's crazy!

5. He looks scared (upon seeing a close up of Aurilia's face at bat).

6. Now that's the kinda guy who should be in THE center (while watching Freel chase one down in CF).

I swear, she doesn't even know what RedsZone is, but when she has spoken I could have sworn that she was repeating lines from this board. She has not heard this stuff from me (because I'd have been telling her about Junior's sweet swing and Dunn's OBP) -- or anyone else as far as I know.

The only player I have ever talked to her about was Freel, and that was only when I could get her to stop a minute to come watch a replay (or my tape) of one of his wall collisions.

Help me interpret this. Mrs. Far East knows less about the sport than almost anyone I know. For example, she invariably comments that, "They should take that pitcher out," when any guy on the mound gives up a couple of hits in the inning, no matter what the score or situation or inning or whether it be starter or reliever.

Could even so casual an observer of the game be so insightful about those 6 items listed above, especially about the two centerfielders? Or should those of us who agree with her be just categorized as hardly more than casual observers ourselves? As Bob Boone would say, "Everyone knows a little bit about the game."

[Always Red]

Freel made 2 excellent catches in CF after the Griffey injury; one coming in on a line drive, and one over his head (that at first he misjudged); I don't think Junior gets either one of those balls.

I don't think that there's any question that the Reds are a better team with Freel or Denorfia in CF rather than Junior- defensively.

The absence of Kearns, especially, makes Griffey's bat all the more important. Neither Freel nor Deno can go on the hot streaks that Junior can still generate.

Junior's not the ballplayer he once was, but he's still a vital part of this team's offense. The Reds need him now more than ever.

What was once, just in spring training a strength of this team (the OF) is now, in fact, one of this teams weaknesses.

[RBA]

Yup, Wayne pretty much did away with our great outfield offensively. Jr's bat needs to be in there. He needs to move to a corner position and put Freel in Center.

Denorfia is no way MLB ready offensively and his defense is not as was once as advertised on RedsZone by some Redszone experts. He's a 4th outfileder at best.

I think someone sold Wayne on Denorfia before the Kearns trade. Who ever that scout was needs to go into remedial scout training.

[BuckWoody]

I was pretty fired up early in the season about Denorfia's ability as well, having chugged a couple glasses of the RedsZone kool-aid. He just doesn't look ready yet and at 26 I sure hope he doesn't turn into another AAAA player a la Brandon Larson.

I think overall the Reds are better with Jr. in the lineup.

[Cyclone792]

Denorfia is no way MLB ready offensively and his defense is not as was once as advertised on RedsZone by some Redszone experts. He's a 4th outfileder at best.

I think someone sold Wayne on Denorfia before the Kearns trade. Who ever that scout was needs to go into remedial scout training.

I'm not sure you and I are watching the same Chris Denorfia.

The Chris Denorfia I see has excellent instincts of the ball immediately as it comes off the bat, which enables him to get a remarkable jump on the ball in his first few steps and locate the spot on the field where the ball will eventually land. The Chris Denorfia I see also has incredible top flight speed in the outfield and outstanding closing speed to get to that spot on the field where the ball will land.

That is a prototypical center fielder who could put up a zone rating factor in the 0.890 to 0.910 range and save us 10-15 runs per 162 games over the average defensive center fielder.

The center fielder we currently trot out there on a nightly basis has no legs, a slow first step, slow top speed and slow closing speed. Over 162 games, he'll put up a zone rating of about 0.820, which is worst for all qualified center fielders, and he will allow 20 more runs per 162 games than an average center fielder would allow.

That's a 30-35 run swing defensively alone with Denorfia vs. Griffey in center field. That is astronomical, and it's real.

If Chris Denorfia already has a 30-35 run advantage on Griffey with his glove, then he doesn't have to be anywhere near the offensive performer that Griffey is to match the future Hall of Famer's current production level.

People also forget that the average MLB center fielder posts only ~.750 OPS (~.330 OBP and ~.420 SLG). If Chris Denorfia puts up even a .720 OPS, once adding in his defensive contributions, his overall contributions will be no worse than average for a major league center fielder. If Denorfia puts up a .750 OPS, he'd be an overall above average major league center fielder.

Average to above average production at a league minimum salary; that's a formula that can be crucial to assisting teams in winning games.

[RedsManRick]

That's a 30-35 run swing defensively alone with Denorfia vs. Griffey in center field. That is astronomical, and it's real.

Chris Denorfia. He's real and he's spectacular......

Agreed 100% Cyclone. Not everybody can be a star. But if you can get average to above average production from a major league minumum salary, while simultaneously solving a growing problem with another player, you'd be stupid not to do it.

There's abo****ely nothing wrong with a plus defender who's average offensively for his position. Of course, we'll never know what Deno can do offensively if he doesn't get a chance to play regularly.

Given that scenario, do you think a Freel/Aurilia platoon at 2B makes sense?

[RollyInRaleigh]

Agree that Griffey needs to go to a corner OF position. Freel has made some wonderful plays in centerfield. I like him there. Denorfia as a starter? I must be missing something.

[REDREAD]

Definitely not better off. The offense will struggle even more without Jr in it.

[Always Red]

I agree totally re: Denorfia. I drank that same kool-aid!

He's the MVP of the International League (and spring training), yet every time he's up here he looks totally overmatched. I also think Freel is better defensively, not just for Freel's acrobatic catches, but for getting to the ball in a timely manner. To me, Deno often sports the "deer in the headlights" look.

I hope he can get it together during the offseason, because he's our best bet for a 4th outfielder next year. I've not given up on him yet, but the clock is ticking...

[Redhook]

Unless we pick up a big bopper in the offseason we desperately need Griffey's bat in the lineup. He's still very capable of hitting 30 homers and 100 RBI, if healthy of course. Without a doubt, he'll be our right fielder next year. And I'm happy about that.

Deno. Hmmmm, what to say. I like the way he plays, but I really don't envision him being an everyday outfielder. He just doesn't have much to offer offensively. I really believe, and I've said this earlier, that he needs to change his batting stance to have a chance. He needs to put his hands farther back and up higher to be in a better position to drive the ball. IMO, he has to do too much before he swings to get in a good hitting position. I could be wrong, but to me he looks like he has almost no chance to hit the ball out of the infield with that batting stance.

[redsmetz]

I'm hoping that in the offseason, management can talk with Griffey about sliding over to a corner. I would not be surprised to see Freel dealt in the offseason either with the Reds perhaps looking at bringing in another Center fielder. I've said all along that Denorfia would be a good filler or maybe even a trading chip.

[RBA]

I'm thinking the Reds might attempt to move Aurillia to third and Encarncionn to the OF starting in spring training. It's a move that I don't like, but for some reason I think the Reds would try.