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Thread: 9-5 vs Giants -- Hollandsworth over Deno

  1. #301
    Smooth WMR's Avatar
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    Re: 9-5 vs Giants -- Hollandsworth over Deno

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    it's no mistake that the Yankees return from slumber occured the year free agency showed up.
    WOY, the historian that you are, it's so cool that you brought that up. The Reserve Clause and Free Agency is exactly what we were studying in my Sports Law class tonight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Calipari is not, nor has he ever been accused or "caught", cheating. He himself turned in one of his players (Camby) for dealing with an agent to get one Final Four overturned. The other is all on the NCAA and Rose. (IF Rose cheated.)
    "Cheering for Kentucky is like watching Star Wars and hoping Darth Vader chokes an ewok"


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  3. #302
    Reds Slacker '07 RedsMan3203's Avatar
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    Re: 9-5 vs Giants -- Hollandsworth over Deno

    Hollandsworth 3/4 with an RBI. not to bad...
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  4. #303
    Mon chou Choo vaticanplum's Avatar
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    Re: 9-5 vs Giants -- Hollandsworth over Deno

    Look, I'm sorry I brought it up. i didn't mean for this to become a debate of the Yankees and their spending habits, for which I believe I've made it clear I have great disdain. I just made a point that they're consistently better later in the season than they are at the beginning. That's all. That, to me, has nothing to do with money or the way the team is run on the business side; in fact it's one of the few purely on-the-field points one can make about a team. A-Rod's salary isn't backloaded on the season.

    I understand the ribbing, I expect it, I agree with a lot of it, and I don't mind defending the team. But it's just so easy to hate the Yankees in about three words. They're all the things we're supposed to hate: rich, successful, capitalistic, anti-underdogs. Fine. I hate those things a lot of the time too. But the money argument doesn't suffice as a counterpoint to every single positive point about the Yankees. It doesn't have anything to do with the original point that I brought up: that they play truly great baseball in September year after year, and I think that's something to be admired.
    There is no such thing as a pitching prospect.

  5. #304
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    Re: 9-5 vs Giants -- Hollandsworth over Deno

    Quote Originally Posted by vaticanplum View Post
    Look, I'm sorry I brought it up. i didn't mean for this to become a debate of the Yankees and their spending habits, for which I believe I've made it clear I have great disdain. I just made a point that they're consistently better later in the season than they are at the beginning. That's all. That, to me, has nothing to do with money or the way the team is run on the business side; in fact it's one of the few purely on-the-field points one can make about a team. A-Rod's salary isn't backloaded on the season.

    I understand the ribbing, I expect it, I agree with a lot of it, and I don't mind defending the team. But it's just so easy to hate the Yankees in about three words. They're all the things we're supposed to hate: rich, successful, capitalistic, anti-underdogs. Fine. I hate those things a lot of the time too. But the money argument doesn't suffice as a counterpoint to every single positive point about the Yankees. It doesn't have anything to do with the original point that I brought up: that they play truly great baseball in September year after year, and I think that's something to be admired.






    (sorry I got that in an email the other day and couldn't resist sharing it)
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Calipari is not, nor has he ever been accused or "caught", cheating. He himself turned in one of his players (Camby) for dealing with an agent to get one Final Four overturned. The other is all on the NCAA and Rose. (IF Rose cheated.)
    "Cheering for Kentucky is like watching Star Wars and hoping Darth Vader chokes an ewok"


  6. #305
    Mon chou Choo vaticanplum's Avatar
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    Re: 9-5 vs Giants -- Hollandsworth over Deno

    Quote Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS View Post





    (sorry I got that in an email the other day and couldn't resist sharing it)
    Ah yes...that is the other argument I usually get besides the money thing
    There is no such thing as a pitching prospect.

  7. #306
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    Re: 9-5 vs Giants -- Hollandsworth over Deno

    Quote Originally Posted by vaticanplum View Post
    Ah yes...that is the other argument I usually get besides the money thing
    Yankees fans aren't supposed to be pleasant and affable!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Calipari is not, nor has he ever been accused or "caught", cheating. He himself turned in one of his players (Camby) for dealing with an agent to get one Final Four overturned. The other is all on the NCAA and Rose. (IF Rose cheated.)
    "Cheering for Kentucky is like watching Star Wars and hoping Darth Vader chokes an ewok"


  8. #307
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: 9-5 vs Giants -- Hollandsworth over Deno

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Not only does Deno not start in favor of Hollandsworth, Narron slaps humility all over Phillips and Ross by batting Hollandsworth in front of them.
    Man, I make myself look like a fool often. Although I bet Phillips wishes someone else were rounding third rather than Hollandsworth. I however am not, in hindsight. That was absolutely freaking hilarious, and since it didnt cost us anything, I loved it.

  9. #308
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    Re: 9-5 vs Giants -- Hollandsworth over Deno

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsMan3203 View Post
    Hollandsworth 3/4 with an RBI. not to bad...
    Yeah - I loved reading over the first page of this thread and some bemoaning his starting. It must be purposely planned that way to bring him luck. Both he and Nature Boy go 3 fer 4 and provide us with the runs for victory.

    And what about RA's diving catch?
    "In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)

  10. #309
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    Re: 9-5 vs Giants -- Hollandsworth over Deno

    Well, I didn't get the chance to write last night, but as an eyewitness to the gem last night, I thought I'd give some thoughts.

    The offense came right out last night and made the most of the opportunity handed to them by the ineffective Matt Morris (which, as I recall, we didn't do out in Frisco - is that right??). He clearly wasn't sharp out of the gate, although he settled down.

    Even after the first, we were hitting the ball well overall. Hollandsworth's one out was that deep fly ball that had a tiny bit of room to fall into Alou's glove. If he hadn't gotten under it, he might have killed someone on RF deck. I think it went as far up as it did out. But SF made some nice plays in the infield to gobble up some sharply hit balls.

    The defense was superb. Aurilia acquited himself well, although I'm not recommending that he be our solution for the next couple of years, but he took charge out there tonight, but everybody fielded their positions very well. Even Hollandsworth's diving stab at the dying quail in RF was some good effort.

    I thought Jerry Narron pulled all the right ropes last night. The line-up was effective, fielded well and got the runs we needed to win. His defensive substitutions worked extremely well last night too.

    Arroyo! What can I saw. I was on. He was not overpowering, he was not tricky. He appeared to be effortless though and pitched masterfully. The scouting reports on Bonds must have been good because he must never seemed t swing at the first pitch and tonights first pitch to Bonds was a 67 MPH "I don't know what" (some side arm jobbie). He got strikeouts when he needed them on pitchs that had the Giants tied in knots. While I didn't watch the Radar Gun the whole night, I think 90 mph was the highest I saw. The aforementioned 67 mph was the slowest. That was a very smart performance.

    All in all, this was the Reds at their best tonight.

  11. #310
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    Re: 9-5 vs Giants -- Hollandsworth over Deno

    Quote Originally Posted by vaticanplum View Post
    Look, I'm sorry I brought it up. i didn't mean for this to become a debate of the Yankees and their spending habits, for which I believe I've made it clear I have great disdain. I just made a point that they're consistently better later in the season than they are at the beginning. That's all. That, to me, has nothing to do with money or the way the team is run on the business side; in fact it's one of the few purely on-the-field points one can make about a team. A-Rod's salary isn't backloaded on the season.

    I understand the ribbing, I expect it, I agree with a lot of it, and I don't mind defending the team. But it's just so easy to hate the Yankees in about three words. They're all the things we're supposed to hate: rich, successful, capitalistic, anti-underdogs. Fine. I hate those things a lot of the time too. But the money argument doesn't suffice as a counterpoint to every single positive point about the Yankees. It doesn't have anything to do with the original point that I brought up: that they play truly great baseball in September year after year, and I think that's something to be admired.

    Never apologize for your fandom.

  12. #311
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    Re: 9-5 vs Giants -- Hollandsworth over Deno

    Quote Originally Posted by vaticanplum View Post

    But it's just so easy to hate the Yankees in about three words.
    I can hate the Yankees in two words.


    And don't be sorry, it's a good discussion. You just happen to be wrong
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  13. #312
    Harry Chiti Fan registerthis's Avatar
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    Re: 9-5 vs Giants -- Hollandsworth over Deno

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    and too much curly hair on the universal soap.
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

  14. #313
    Mon chou Choo vaticanplum's Avatar
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    Re: 9-5 vs Giants -- Hollandsworth over Deno

    Quote Originally Posted by VR View Post
    And don't be sorry, it's a good discussion. You just happen to be wrong
    So you're right about what? That the Yankees spend the most money? Of course you are. That spending the most money allows you to attract better players and build a better team? Again, pretty common knowledge and common sense. That having the best, highest-paid team means you're immune to mistakes and are bound to win the World Series every year? Here I disagree. And let's put aside for a moment that this still has nothing to do with my original, non-monetary point that the Yankees get better throughout the course of the season.

    The disparity in MLB teams' payrolls has increased dramatically over the last twenty years, and much more so over even the last ten. From 1985-1990, the win differential between the top 25% of teams in terms of payroll to the bottom 25% was just 5.5 games. Of course this is directly related to the fact that the Reds, a relatively low-paid team at the time, were able to win the World Series in 1990 (in my opinion, the last truly small-market team to do so). From 1991-1997, as salaries increased, that differential went up to 10.9. And from 1998-2002, it ballooned up to an ungodly 14.7 games. That's really kind of awful for the short time frame it represents in baseball history.

    So where do the Yankees fit into this? Well, of course, only the first of the WS wins of their recent "dynasty" fall in that second bracket, and there's no question that team were good partly because of the money they were paid (although they were also partly good because of the fruits of their unusually strong farm system at the time). However, the Yankees' payroll was $61.51 million in 1996; while still the highest in the majors that year, still nothing like the difference that exists now between them and other teams. by 1998 their payroll stood at a little over $68 million, with the Orioles (a losing team) and the Indians and Braves right behind them. 1999 was when both salaries and the differential between winning teams really started to jump: the Yankees had a $91.9 million payroll in 1999 and $113.4 million in 2000, at a time when teams like the Marlins and the Twins were still hovering around the $15 million mark. The money was helping the team win. Then again, the fact that a core of very talented players that had been together since the minors and been with the team since the first win in 1996 was still intact was helping them too.

    I do not have data for how the run differential of 14.9 has changed since 2002, but I can only assume that it's remained constant or at least not gone up, given the lack of small-market teams in the postseason and the fact that salaries continue to rise pretty dramatically. And how many World Series have the Yankees won since 2000, a six-year period in which their payroll has shot up to its present near-$200 million at a time when only five teams break the $100 million mark? Of course we know that the answer to this is 0. In the same way that many of Jerry Narron's poor managerial decisions lead to accidental wins, this isn't causual, people will say. Or is it? could it be possible that what I have been saying since at least Jason Giambi is true: that spending money won't buy you championships? That it will buy you more talent, and more egos and constant adjustments, but it can't buy you a team that will work together on the field? There's no question that this kind of payroll guarantees at least a playoff advantage. Beyond that, you don't need just great offensive numbers or great pitching. You really need a team. The Yankees have spend the last 6+ years trying to buy the former while completely neglecting the latter. (They moved the world's best shortstop to a different position, for crying out loud. If that isn't neglecting the makeup of a team in favor of numbers, I don't know what is. They're lucky that the man that they got there is gifted enough that he's made that adjustment as well as he has.) Which, once again, makes it even more impressive to me that they continually gel throughout the season the way they do, and also makes it less surprising to me that they can't hold it together during the playoffs.

    These are the arguments I hear all the time: for the amount of money they're paying their players, of course they should win. It's true in a way, but it's also usually a fallacy in the context of any given argument. You are hearing it from a Yankees fan: listen to what your mother told you your whole life. Money isn't everything.

    and now, to get the taste of all those numbers out of my mouth, I think I will head off and treat myself to a nice Giants-Reds game.
    There is no such thing as a pitching prospect.


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