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View Poll Results: Closers are...

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  • Made.

    35 59.32%
  • Born.

    24 40.68%
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Thread: Closers are...

  1. #16
    Greatness In The Making RedLegSuperStar's Avatar
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    Re: Closers are...

    I'll say made.. I think Mo is the only one I can think of just fit that mold. But others like Gagne, Pabblebon, Baez, Izzy, Wagner, Ryan.. were all starters either in the minors or majors before being dubbed closers.

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  3. #17
    Member Crosley68's Avatar
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    Re: Closers are...

    Made from people who were born with the temperment and natural ability. How is that for fence sitting? LOL
    Let's play two!!!

  4. #18
    Davey BuckWoody's Avatar
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    Re: Closers are...

    I went with Made. Seems like so many good closers are converted starters that were able to make the transition from pacing themselves for long outings to letting it fly for one inning bursts.

  5. #19
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Closers are...

    Quote Originally Posted by RedLegSuperStar View Post
    I'll say made.. I think Mo is the only one I can think of just fit that mold. But others like Gagne, Pabblebon, Baez, Izzy, Wagner, Ryan.. were all starters either in the minors or majors before being dubbed closers.
    Mo was a starter.

  6. #20
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: Closers are...

    On another thread, Flyer 85 wrote:

    The issue I have with WK is his draft this year. The Reds might have had a lights out closer next year if they had drafted Lincecum.
    Does one draft a pitcher planning on making him a closer? I would think not, but rather you discover the closer instincts in a player. I think you assume most pitchers will be starters and then work from there. I think one of the problems with having drafted Ryan Wagner first (and maybe I'm only talking about First Round draft picks here) is that he was only one thing. I don't think you use a first round draft pick for a closer. In that sense, I go with "made", although I may have voted otherwise when i took the thread jokingly. But I don't think you draft a closer.

  7. #21
    Yay!
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    Re: Closers are...

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Mo was a starter.
    68 minor league starts and 10 in the bigs in '95.
    When all is said and done more is said than done.

  8. #22
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Closers are...

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz View Post
    On another thread, Flyer 85 wrote:



    Does one draft a pitcher planning on making him a closer? I would think not, but rather you discover the closer instincts in a player. I think you assume most pitchers will be starters and then work from there. I think one of the problems with having drafted Ryan Wagner first (and maybe I'm only talking about First Round draft picks here) is that he was only one thing. I don't think you use a first round draft pick for a closer. In that sense, I go with "made", although I may have voted otherwise when i took the thread jokingly. But I don't think you draft a closer.
    There are always exceptions (i.e., Huston Street), but for the most part the bigger closers have started out as starters.

  9. #23
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Closers are...

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    There are always exceptions (i.e., Huston Street), but for the most part the bigger closers have started out as starters.
    It's akin to the idea that many major league 1B/RF played SS in high school. At lower levels, you tend to get the most out of your best players. Your high school closer probably isn't going to end up in the majors. If he was that good, he would've been starting.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  10. #24
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: Closers are...

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    It's akin to the idea that many major league 1B/RF played SS in high school. At lower levels, you tend to get the most out of your best players. Your high school closer probably isn't going to end up in the majors. If he was that good, he would've been starting.
    That's what I'm thinking and I think it was the flaw in drafting Wagner as a closer from college. I think that's the flaw of suggesting that the Reds could have drafted their next closer, particularly a player from this year's draft already identified as a closer.

  11. #25
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Closers are...

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz View Post
    That's what I'm thinking and I think it was the flaw in drafting Wagner as a closer from college. I think that's the flaw of suggesting that the Reds could have drafted their next closer, particularly a player from this year's draft already identified as a closer.
    I'm curious on the backstory on why Wagner (for example) was closing in college. I imagine that occasionally, that insight will tell you how well he'll convert. Perhaps the story is, "he blew his arm out as a sophomore and we wanted to keep his innings down so he's closing." However, what if it's "he's got a slider that nobody can touch unless they're sitting on it, but his other stuff is average. When he starts he tends to get hit around a bit. He doesn't really have the stamina for more than 40-50 pitches a time anyways..." Those are vastly different stories which have different implications moving forward. I don't know what Wagner's was, but I'm interested...

    Personally, I'm in the made category. While people have personalitiy traits, they are not immutable. People can and do learn to deal with certain situations. Sure, there might be pitchers who don't do well in those high pressure situations. However, the following is a logical falicy:

    1.) There are pitchers who, because of their makeup, are unable to close games successfully.
    2.) Therefore, in order to close games successfully, one must be born with a certain makeup.

    The closer title is one of opportunity, not talent. Ryan Freel is not a power hitter, despite ample opportunity to hit home runs. Eric Milton is not a closer because he's never been asked to closer games. Todd Jones is a closer because managers keep asking him to close games despite being decidedly average at it.

    I have no doubt that some pitchers pitch better in low pressure situations. This distinction might even be "born". However, being a closer more about pitching in the 9th inning than having some special mix of qualities.

    Put another way, you can be born a "not-closer", but you can't be born a closer.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  12. #26
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: Closers are...

    Re: Ryan Wagner, from the University of Houston website:

    HOUSTON - Former University of Houston righthander Ryan Wagner was traded to the Washington Nationals by the Cincinnati Reds in an eight-player trade, Nationals Vice President and General Manager Jim Bowden on Thursday afternoon.

    Wagner, who was a First-Team All-American reliever with the Cougars in 2003, was sent to the Nationals with outfielder Austin Kearns and shortstop Felipe Lopez in exchange for righthander Gary Majewski, southpaw Bill Bray, infielder Brendan Harris, shortstop Royce Clayton and righthander Daryl Thompson.

    A two-year letterwinner at UH in 2002-03, Wagner emerged as one of the nation's top closers during the 2003 season. The Yoakum, Texas, native ranked among the national leaders with a UH-record 15 saves and broke a 39-year-old NCAA Division I record with 16.8 strikeouts per nine innings.

    In only 79.1 innings of work, he compiled 148 strikeouts, the third-highest mark in UH single-season history. He also added a 6-5 record with a 1.93 ERA to lead the UH staff in the final category. With numbers like that, he earned All-America First-Team honors from Baseball America, Collegiate Baseball and the American Baseball Coaches Association. It was the third First-Team All-America honor that the sophomore righthander received during the 2003 postseason. He was named to similar teams by Collegiate Baseball magazine and the American Baseball Coaches Association.

    Following his sophomore season, Wagner became the first Cougar player to be taken in the first round of the annual amateur draft when he was chosen at No. 14 by the Cincinnati Reds

    He became the first player in school history to be drafted in the first round in Major League Baseball's annual amateur draft when he was taken with the 14th overall pick by the Cincinnati Reds.

    From there, he wasted little time in rising through the ranks, making his Major League debut only 40 days after throwing his last pitch as a collegiate player. Wagner became the first player in UH, Conference USA and Cincinnati Reds history to debut in the big leagues during the season he was drafted.

    He became the first player from the 2003 Draft to appear in the big leagues (edging current Nationals closer Chad Cordero for the distinction). In his first Major League season, he compiled a 1.66 ERA in 17 games.

  13. #27
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
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    Re: Closers are...

    Closers are.....

    Something the Reds have lacked since Jeff Shaw?

  14. #28
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Closers are...

    Relief pitchers.
    Go Gators!


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