Harrang or Arroyo. Who would you take?

[fearofpopvol1]

I know that Harrang is "considered" to be the ace and over the course of this season, has seemed more consistent. However, Bronson really only had that one bad stretch and even during that time, many of the times he lost had something to do with errors or a struggling offense.

As of late though, Harrang just hasn't looked as good and Arroyo has been pitching well.

So if the Reds really needed a win, who would you count on to get it? Harrang or Arroyo and why?

I would've said Harrang earlier in the season, but as of late, I would take Arroyo.

[Sean_CaseyRules]

I would say Harang. He has been the Ace of the staff this year and I believe that he is the most reliable guy on our pitching staff.

[Tom Servo]

I would've said Harrang earlier in the season, but as of late, I would take Arroyo.

I'd say that's pretty much the concensus answer. They've both gone through rough patches, Bronson's in July and now Harang's during the last month.


I do think Bronson's just got a better grasp of what he can do with the ball than Aaron does at this point in his career. Harang tend to leave a few too many meatballs right down the plate. Arroyo's not perfect either as he struggles with sometimes leaving hanging curves/sliders to lefties but still I think I'd have to say Arroyo over Harang if I need a win.

Plus Bronson knows how to take his hacks at the plate.

[RedFanAlways1966]

I would say Harang. He has been the Ace of the staff this year and I believe that he is the most reliable guy on our pitching staff.

I don't know about that, S_CRules. Harang & Arroyo have the same number of starts this year (32). The only stats that Harang leads in is strikeouts and Home Runs Allowed. Two important stats, ERA & WHIP, are not as close as some might think:

Harang: 3.90 ERA ; 1.32 WHIP.
Arroyo: 3.17 ERA ; 1.14 WHIP.

Arroyo has avg. 6.92 IP/GS while Harang has avg. 6.49 IP/GS. Qulaity starts are 21 for Arroyo (65.6%) and 15 for Harang (46.9%).

Aaron Harnag is a good pitcher and I am not demeaning him. But Bronson Arroyo has been the team's Most Valuable Pitcher this year and deserves the title of Ace for this team IMO.

[Sean_CaseyRules]

I don't know about that, S_CRules. Harang & Arroyo have the same number of starts this year (32). The only stats that Harang leads in is strikeouts and Home Runs Allowed. Two important stats, ERA & WHIP, are not as close as some might think:

Harang: 3.90 ERA ; 1.32 WHIP.
Arroyo: 3.17 ERA ; 1.14 WHIP.

Arroyo has avg. 6.92 IP/GS while Harang has avg. 6.49 IP/GS. Qulaity starts are 21 for Arroyo (65.6%) and 15 for Harang (46.9%).

Aaron Harnag is a good pitcher and I am not demeaning him. But Bronson Arroyo has been the team's Most Valuable Pitcher this year and deserves the title of Ace for this team IMO.

Thanks for the info, I did not know all of that. It just seemed like he pitched a lot better this season, but the numbers do not lie!

[Tony Cloninger]

Arroyo has been the only starter who realizes that this team was in a WC race....and pitched accordingly. The others have been up and down.....harang may just be wearing down....but he sure seems to lose it at the worst times.

[Shaggy Sanchez]

I don't know about that, S_CRules. Harang & Arroyo have the same number of starts this year (32). The only stats that Harang leads in is strikeouts and Home Runs Allowed. Two important stats, ERA & WHIP, are not as close as some might think:

Harang: 3.90 ERA ; 1.32 WHIP.
Arroyo: 3.17 ERA ; 1.14 WHIP.

Arroyo has avg. 6.92 IP/GS while Harang has avg. 6.49 IP/GS. Qulaity starts are 21 for Arroyo (65.6%) and 15 for Harang (46.9%).

Aaron Harnag is a good pitcher and I am not demeaning him. But Bronson Arroyo has been the team's Most Valuable Pitcher this year and deserves the title of Ace for this team IMO.

One could argue though that Arroyo has had an advantage over Harang this year because of coming from the AL. Harang has been pitching to the NL hitters for a few years now and they know what to expect from him. I would give the advantage to Harang because of this.

[RedFanAlways1966]

Thanks for the info, I did not know all of that. It just seemed like he pitched a lot better this season, but the numbers do not lie!

Thanks for the thanks, S_CRules. Harang is consistent and I like him. He has been more than a surprise to most since he was obtained in the Jose Guillen trade that took place on July 29, 2003 and was called up from Louisville on Aug. 8, 2003. He is also the first #1 starter on a REDS team (this year) to put up respectable numbers in a very looooonnnngggg time! Hamilton, Harnisch, Haynes, Lidle, Wilson, etc... UGH!

You were not here at the time, but you should have seen the reaction of some when "the great" Jose Guillen was traded to Oakland by Kullman & Maddux.

By the way (and interesting to me)... I checked and noticed that the run support for Harang and Arroyo are darn close this year... 156 runs for Harang - 151 runs for Arroyo.

[RedFanAlways1966]

One could argue though that Arroyo has had an advantage over Harang this year because of coming from the AL. Harang has been pitching to the NL hitters for a few years now and they know what to expect from him. I would give the advantage to Harang because of this.

That is a valid point, Shaggy. On the flip-side you'd think scouting reports and film are used in today's game. However, there is no substitute for facing the real thing. Good point!

[Always Red]

I don't know about that, S_CRules. Harang & Arroyo have the same number of starts this year (32). The only stats that Harang leads in is strikeouts and Home Runs Allowed. Two important stats, ERA & WHIP, are not as close as some might think:

Harang: 3.90 ERA ; 1.32 WHIP.
Arroyo: 3.17 ERA ; 1.14 WHIP.

Arroyo has avg. 6.92 IP/GS while Harang has avg. 6.49 IP/GS. Qulaity starts are 21 for Arroyo (65.6%) and 15 for Harang (46.9%).

Aaron Harnag is a good pitcher and I am not demeaning him. But Bronson Arroyo has been the team's Most Valuable Pitcher this year and deserves the title of Ace for this team IMO.

great post, and I agree totally!

Up until a month ago, I'd have voted for Harang. This month Arroyo has been awesome. I was at the shutout he threw last week against the Padres, and it was almost effortless. I was sitting behind homeplate, and the angles he gives you are very deceptive. Plus, Arroyo has shown an ability to be rubber-armed, and after his first poor attempt at pitching on 3 days rest, has shown me that he could probably do it for long stretches of time.

I think the AL/NL thing probably doesn't hold much water after you've been pitching in the NL all year long.

Truth is, while neither can be considered an "ace," IMO both guys are probably #2's at this point. That's a pretty good start to putting a staff together for next year.

[TOBTTReds]

I think people get caught up in W/L too much. During that stretch of 11? games where Arroyo didn't have a win, he had some decent games still.

6/24 6 ip, 3 r
6/29 7 ip, 2 r
7/15 7 ip, 0 r
7/20 8 ip, 2 r
8/01 6 ip, 4 r

There were 4 quality starts in his "bad" streak, and I would say three of them were "great" starts (7 ip, 2 runs, just my personal definition). It was definitely a little rough patch for him, but still OK. Here is is ERA by month:

2.34 - April
2.79 - May
2.57 - June
5.45 - July (Two or three really bad starts)
4.78 - Aug (One or two bad starts)
1.13 - Sep

He has been VERY solid this year.

[Sean_CaseyRules]

By the way (and interesting to me)... I checked and noticed that the run support for Harang and Arroyo are darn close this year... 156 runs for Harang - 151 runs for Arroyo.

That is where I thought there would be the most difference between the two of them...hmm....that just seems weird to me...

[redsupport]

arroyo pitched clutch and the bullpen blew plenty for him

[Johnny Footstool]

Arroyo has been the only starter who realizes that this team was in a WC race....and pitched accordingly. The others have been up and down.....harang may just be wearing down....but he sure seems to lose it at the worst times.

The season is full of highs and lows for every player. Arroyo pitched just as well at the begining of the season as he has been doing in July and August.

[HumnHilghtFreel]

I'd say Arroyo. They're both good pitchers, but I think Arroyo seems to want the ball more. His willingness to take the mound on 3 days rest shows that he really wants to go out there and win.

Not to say that Harang doesn't... he's a different kind of pitcher who probably couldn't go on 3 days rest.