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Thread: Will Drew Stubbs be a bust?

  1. #391
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Will Drew Stubbs be a bust?

    Alright now..... This thread is 26-27 pages long and I still have no clue why the Reds would make a bust of Drew Stubbs.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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  3. #392
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Will Drew Stubbs be a bust?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Votto certainly could be a gold glove first baseman, but he can also be a .900 OPS left fielder who won't kill you on defense.
    we have no idea how Votto will do in LF. He has hardly played there. Some guys don't get good jumps or track balls well(hi Willy T) even though they have an abundance of athletic ability.

    We also have no idea how well Alonso will play 1B. He was considered nothing more than a mediocre defender with limited range ... and I would be shocked if he is anywhere near as good at 1B is Votto has turned out to be.
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

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    Re: Will Drew Stubbs be a bust?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    No he didn't. He started every game at first base. He played 3B in high school, but thats a very large leap. He can't play 3B as a pro.
    I thought it was college too (for some reason). Oh well. I'd still give it a shot...even though, as I said originally, it would be a longshot.

  5. #394
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    Re: Will Drew Stubbs be a bust?

    Quote Originally Posted by flyer85 View Post
    we have no idea how Votto will do in LF. He has hardly played there. Some guys don't get good jumps or track balls well(hi Willy T) even though they have an abundance of athletic ability.

    We also have no idea how well Alonso will play 1B. He was considered nothing more than a mediocre defender with limited range ... and I would be shocked if he is anywhere near as good at 1B is Votto has turned out to be.
    So you are essentially weakening the defense at both positions. However, you are getting both big bats in the lineup.

  6. #395
    Member membengal's Avatar
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    Re: Will Drew Stubbs be a bust?

    How many Reds switched positions on the fabled BRM team? We know Rose would move to accomodate getting bats in line-ups. Didn't Doggie come up as a 3b or am I "misremembering" that?

    Hasn't Albert Pujols played four spots for St. Louis, without complaint, in his career? (3b, LF, RF, 1b)

    Point is, it's not crazy talk to wonder whether this team can make Alonso AND Votto work. At all.

  7. #396
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Will Drew Stubbs be a bust?

    Quote Originally Posted by flyer85 View Post
    we have no idea how Votto will do in LF. He has hardly played there. Some guys don't get good jumps or track balls well(hi Willy T) even though they have an abundance of athletic ability.

    We also have no idea how well Alonso will play 1B. He was considered nothing more than a mediocre defender with limited range ... and I would be shocked if he is anywhere near as good at 1B is Votto has turned out to be.
    You and me both. I understand the reasoning behind it but don't really like it, which is part of the reason I wanted G. Beckham. But unless he (Yonder) is dealt it's inevitable, which hurts us defensively in 2 different spots at least for awhile if not for good. I also think it indirectly hurts the rest of the defense and defenders. But perhaps I am just overreacting, let's hope so.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

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    Re: Will Drew Stubbs be a bust?

    Quote Originally Posted by membengal View Post
    Point is, it's not crazy talk to wonder whether this team can make Alonso AND Votto work. At all.
    At the same time, it's not crazy talk to wonder if Alonso could be dealt to fill one of the team's needs.

    Honestly, I'm fine either way they choose to go. But Alonso better bring a pretty good return if they choose to deal him.

  9. #398
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Will Drew Stubbs be a bust?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRM View Post
    So you are essentially weakening the defense at both positions. However, you are getting both big bats in the lineup.
    maybe ... alonso still has miles to go. High A is a long way from the majors. He will make it to the majors but a mediocre defender at 1b had better be able to rake.

    If they trade Alonso they had better solve a positional problem going forward (like SS or C).
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    Re: Will Drew Stubbs be a bust?

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Alright now..... This thread is 26-27 pages long and I still have no clue why the Reds would make a bust of Drew Stubbs.
    I'm pretty sure Stubbs is actually going to be making the bust of the giraffe from Toys R Us from bronze. It should be in the Reds HoF soon. If that clears up the confusion at all
    "Last week I helped my friend stay put. It's a lot easier'n helpin' 'em move. I just went over to his house and made sure that he did not start to load **** into a truck."

  11. #400
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    Re: Will Drew Stubbs be a bust?

    I have heard Alonso referred to as more than 'mediocre' at first base. He is just fine over there. He isn't Pujols good, but hardly anyone is.

    As for hurting the defense by moving Votto to LF and Alonso to 1B.... I am fine with that if it adds both bats to the lineup because the offensive upgrade will be well worth it.

  12. #401
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    Re: Will Drew Stubbs be a bust?

    The main reason behind potentially moving Votto to left and putting Yonder at first (aside from getting 2 talented bats into the lineup down the road) is that Yonder is going to be much, much cheaper than a high quality bat that has been established in the majors.

    If we believe Yonder can give us a Ryan Braun or Ryan Howard type production at the plate in his first couple of years (which is certainly a large comp to order up, but that is certainly the hope), to get something comparable to that bat that has already been established in the majors or is closing in are his arbitration years will get very, very expensive. For a team like the Reds, you've got to make every dollar count. Lock up kids early if your convinced they're the real deal, move aging vets that no longer meet the expectations that come w/ their contract but are still solid major leaguers.

    If the Reds want to consistantly contend for the playoffs, they've got to continually be smarter than many other organizations. They can't just spend their way out of mistakes like the Yankees or Cubs can. For all the money that Boston has to work with, they also run a pretty smart ship. They're certainly not afraid to move a player out if he doesn't fit in long term and they know where to find value in a player or two.

    Yonder gives you the potential bat at a cheap price for several seasons. Votto certainly has the capability and work ethic to be an average LF, if not above average and can also provide an excellant bat for a fairly low price. Getting 2 cheap, yet highly productive bats into the lineup is something this team needs to constantly look to do. Moving Votto to LF gives you that chance.

    Now w/ that said, they should also be open to moving Yonder if the right deal comes a callin'. While Frazier may not give them the high quality at bat that Yonder potentially posses, perhaps his play in LF along w/ the SS (or other position) that you get in return for Yonder may be greater than simply moving Votto, inserting Yonder and adding whatever return you could get for Frazier. The Reds need and should be open to any offer that improves the team for the long run.

    They also need to be open to any position movement that can help the team in the long run. Moving Votto to LF is a move that should be considerred and evaluated, then attacked w/ abadon should it present itself as the best path going foward.

    Bringing this back to Stubbs and tying all my thoughts together. When Stubbs was drafted a large collection of angst was that he was no sure bet, likely to never be a stud, and many thought they needed to get a better bat w/ the 8th pick. IIRC it was considerred a fairly weak draft, which one can not fault the Reds for, however one can certainly question the wisdom of passing Lincecum. Granted there were many concerns, and perhaps the past troubles w/ Grueler & Howington made them rethink drafted a young pitcher w/ questionable mechanics and/or a funny delivery. I argued then, and argue now, that in order for the #8 draft pick to be considerred successful, he nearly needed to provide above average major league production for several years or lead to a deal for such talent. Considering the flame out rate of draft picks in the majors, I think too many thought the Reds needed more of a sure thing w/ that pick, when I'm not convniced a sure thing existed at the time.

    With the emergence of Votto, Bruce, Yonder, Cueto, Volquez, Phillips, Homer, Frazier, Soto, Duran, Heisey, etc.... Stubbs doesn't have to be a Hall of famer in order to be a large boost to this squad. His potential defense in CF, threat of power, and speed on the basepaths can be a great boost to this squad. A large chunk of the fail of previous versions of the Reds was not the lack of production from kids like Dunn, but rather the continually at bats given to the Juan Castro types deep in the order. A kid that can carry a decent stick, great speed and great defense can help roll a lineup around when hitting down in the 7 spot. We've seen that the last couple of days w/ the reds w/ Votto & Phillips down. It was Nix & Rosalez continuing the assualt on opposing defenses. When you've got solid hitters up & down a lineup, its much more challenging for a pitcher than having a couple of big boppers followed up by below average bats in the bottom of the order.

  13. #402
    Member JaxRed's Avatar
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    Re: Will Drew Stubbs be a bust?

    Nice post Medford

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    Re: Will Drew Stubbs be a bust?

    It used to be before O'Brien arrived, that the average person on this board could do better than the REDS' G.M.

    I'm very thankful that has drastically changed.

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    Re: Will Drew Stubbs be a bust?

    Quote Originally Posted by medford View Post
    My hopeful track record for Alonso is he stays and produces in A ball until memorial day. He's bumped up at the end of May to AA and pounds the ball there for June, July & August.

    The Reds remain in the race and trade Maloney & something else for a solid LF rental bat for 1 season (Holliday seems to come to mind, but I'm sure there will be other options by then). Meanwhile, Yonder continues to pound the ball and gets a gentle push up to AAA for the remainder of the season.

    Said added bat pushes the Reds into the playoffs. At the end of the year, Bob, Walt & Dusty sit Joey down and say "Joey, we want you to move to LF to make room for Yonder. For your troubles we want to sign you to a long term deal, and oh yeah, by willingly moving positions and continuing your hard work we want to put the Captain C on your uniform for the length of said contract and hopefully beyond". Bruce is also locked up long term following a masterful sophomore campaign and MVP push.

    Meanwhile, the Reds see the writing on the wall and get Frazier more playing time at 3b the rest of the year while Homer goes on to dominate AAA to the tune of a 2.43 ERA the rest of the way w/ a late season call up to fill out the bullpen and spot start to rest the starters for the playoffs; for at the end of this year, with 1B, LF, & RF locked up for the foreseeable future, plus a couple of young studly pitchers the envy of all the league, Walt trades Bronson, Edwin & cash for a young studly SS.

    Then going into next year, Stubbs acts as your 4th OF w/ plans to start in CF in 2010 and beyond, while Nix is your left handed power bat off the bench, also capable of playing all 3 OF spots. SS is locked up w/ your recent acquisition, 1b is manned by Yonder, Frazier grabs 3B by the horns, Phillips realizes he doesn't have to swing for a homerun on every 1st pitch slider, Hannigan takes over behind the plate and Aaron + 3 young studly pitchers form a pitching nucleas comparable to the mid 90s braves w/ Micah giving the Reds the most lethal 5th starter in the majors in terms of league average pitching (for a 5th) plus a much better than expected bat/pinch hitter than you'd ever dream of getting out of a pitcher.

    The Reds then proceed to run on a series of world series victories that even the Big Red Machine or Murder Row Yankees would be envious of.

    Hey a man can dream, can't he?
    Fantastic post, Medford. Hope you got yourself a nice salmon from the Spring run this year.

  16. #405
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    Re: Will Drew Stubbs be a bust?

    Quote Originally Posted by flyer85 View Post
    we have no idea how Votto will do in LF. He has hardly played there. Some guys don't get good jumps or track balls well(hi Willy T) even though they have an abundance of athletic ability.

    We also have no idea how well Alonso will play 1B. He was considered nothing more than a mediocre defender with limited range ... and I would be shocked if he is anywhere near as good at 1B is Votto has turned out to be.
    We had this conversation in 2007 where Votto played 41 games in the outfield. I know that Doug saw him play there and commented that he did fine. He could handle himself there. I'm sure others saw him in Louisville in 2007 and remember him playing Left Field. It's not a problem.

    From what I've seen of his athleticism at 1B, he's got the ability to be an above average Left Fielder defensively in the League.

    Left Field has the worst defensive players in all of baseball. It doesn't take much to be just average, and Votto would be much, much, much better than Adam Dunn. He already is.

    At the time in 2007, the reason they were using him in LF, was that the plan was going to be to move Dunn to 1B if they didn't trade him, as Dunn couldn't continue to play LF for the REDS. They solved that problem, but then Jockety knew he could move Votto to Left Field and the decision to draft Alonso was an easy one to make.

    Doug, what do you remember from 2007 and Votto's defense in Left at Louisville? I suppose I could look for your posts, but I don't feel like going through that many.


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