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Thread: There's no joy in Cincinnati

  1. #16
    For a Level Playing Field RedFanAlways1966's Avatar
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    Re: There's no joy in Cincinnati

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    It looks a lot clearer what happened now. The Reds asked about Maj's health at one point in negotiations, and I assume they got satisfactory disclosure. I assume the shot happened after Wayne's inquiry, and it looks like right before Wayne signed off on the deal, he failed to ask, "BTW, has Maj gotten any more treatments since the last update?".
    Remind me to get your user-name at ebay so I never buy anything from you. I can see it now... "Brand new guitar for sale from REDREAD. Unless you ask, I do not need to tell you that the electronics are screwed and the neck is warped. But it was fine when I started the auction. The problems came after I started the 7-day auction. Therefore, buyer beware takes over!"
    Small market fan... always hoping, but never expecting.

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  3. #17
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: There's no joy in Cincinnati

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Not disclosing that a pitcher was getting a CORTISONE shot during negotiations for said pitcher makes a hell of a lot difference in my book.

    I'm not going to debate it, I refuse to change my mind about it, it was shifty, underhanded and essentially cheating. Spin it how you want. I got my spin and in it Bowden shows his true colors.

    True colors, indeed. He didn't invent that style for that one deal. It's been honed and refined over the years, starting with Tony Perez being fired with a telephone machine message.

    He's a lying weasel.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    ~ Mark Twain

  4. #18
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    2007

    Looking at the trade going forward:

    Majik & Bray are young cheap relievers who will be set up men in 2007.

    Lopez is a poor fielding SS who can't hit LHP.
    Kearns is an OK outfielder.
    Both are getting big arbitration raises.

    Bray & Majik & free agent 2b ( Phillips will be at SS in 2007 ) & free agent RF >>>> Lopez & Kearns & 2 free agent relievers

    - Will

  5. #19
    "Let's Roll" TeamBoone's Avatar
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    Re: There's no joy in Cincinnati

    I honestly think Kearns is much better than an "OK" outfielder.

    And Phillips wasn't part of this deal; yet everyone keeps talking like he was.
    "Enjoy this Reds fans, you are watching a legend grow up before your very eyes" ... DoogMinAmo on Adam Dunn

  6. #20
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: There's no joy in Cincinnati

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Not disclosing that a pitcher was getting a CORTISONE shot during negotiations for said pitcher makes a hell of a lot difference in my book.

    I'm not going to debate it, I refuse to change my mind about it, it was shifty, underhanded and essentially cheating. Spin it how you want. I got my spin and in it Bowden shows his true colors.
    Absolutely!

  7. #21
    post hype sleeper cincinnati chili's Avatar
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    Re: There's no joy in Cincinnati

    Quote Originally Posted by paulrichjr View Post
    At the time of the deal, the Reds had scored 448 runs in 89 games, a rate of 5.03 runs per game, good for fourth-best in the National League (unadjusted for ballpark). Since the deal, the Reds have scored 255 runs in 59 games, a rate of 4.32 runs per game, "good" for 14th-best (that is, third worst) in the National League. Only the Brewers and Pirates have been more inept offensively than the Reds since the Kearns-Lopez deal.
    Wow. I missed this thread last week.
    How, then, are those people of the future—who are taking steroids every day—going to look back on baseball players who used steroids? They're going to look back on them as pioneers. They're going to look back at it and say "So what?" - Bill James, Cooperstown and the 'Roids

  8. #22
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: There's no joy in Cincinnati

    Quote Originally Posted by paulrichjr View Post
    I didn't like the trade when it was done. I didn't like it a month later and now after reading this I realize that I hate it. I can't imagine BoBC likes reading this kind of stuff.

    http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog...keith#20060918

    There's no joy in Cincinnati

    posted: Monday, September 18, 2006 | Print Entry

    After dropping two of three to the NL's worst team this weekend, the Reds' shot at the playoffs has dwindled enough that we can call their season a wrap. And perhaps it's time to take a look back at the trade that, in its own way, sealed their back at the end of the All-Star break: the surrender of Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez to Washington for two middle relievers.
    The Reds were 45-44 at the time and considered playoff contenders in the wild-card and divisional races, even though they'd been outscored on the season by 15 runs at the time. But they'd had problems with run prevention, both in the rotation and bullpen (including more than a few late-game failures), so GM Wayne Krivsky -- already being hailed in some quarters for the trade of Wily Mo Peña for Bronson Arroyo and his pickup of Brandon Phillips -- decided to deal about forty percent of his offense for some bullpen help. The idea was that the Reds would take the extra playing time and give it to super-sub Ryan Freel and to minor leaguer Chris Denorfia, as well as to newly acquired Royce Clayton, who would ... I don't know, make a mean mojito for those post-victory parties in the clubhouse. Or something.

    The move failed. At the time of the deal, the Reds had scored 448 runs in 89 games, a rate of 5.03 runs per game, good for fourth-best in the National League (unadjusted for ballpark). Since the deal, the Reds have scored 255 runs in 59 games, a rate of 4.32 runs per game, "good" for 14th-best (that is, third worst) in the National League. Only the Brewers and Pirates have been more inept offensively than the Reds since the Kearns-Lopez deal.

    Meanwhile, Kearns and Lopez have both hit well for Washington since the trade, including a marked improvement in their OBPs. Kearns has hit .250/.374/.423 with the Nationals, while Lopez has hit .294/.378/.385. Among Reds hitters, only Rich Aurilia and Edwin Encarnacion have posted higher OBPs than Kearns and Lopez since the trade went down, and both Clayton and Phillips have posted OBPs below .300.

    The Reds did get two pitchers back in the deal. Bill Bray has a great arm and has a good long-term outlook, but counting on a rookie reliever to contribute to a contending club over a three-month span is not sensible, and he's been so-so since the deal, albeit a major improvement over Chris Hammond and Brian Shackelford, whom the Reds had been using as their lefty relievers. He's been a lot better than the other reliever the Reds acquired -- Gary Majewski made a few horrible appearances and went on the DL with shoulder trouble, which the Reds are claiming they didn't know about. I guess they don't read the papers; here's a May 8 article from the Washington Post that says the Nats had diagnosed tendonitis in Majewski's right shoulder. No one can argue that the Nationals hid Majewski's injury, since it was in the papers. Caveat emptor, kids.

    The Reds may still have missed the playoffs even if Krivsky had kept Kearns and Lopez, since they weren't a great team before the trade and had been horrible in 2005. But at this point, there can be no question that the trade hurt the Reds' chances to make the playoffs, and if they miss the wild card by one or two games, Reds fans will know why.
    This article is dead on.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

  9. #23
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    Re: There's no joy in Cincinnati

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    This article is dead on.
    And maybe why Mr. Krivsky so strongly covered Mr. Narron's back at the Red's HOF "town hall" session last week.

  10. #24
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: There's no joy in Cincinnati

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Like most analyses of this trade, it ignores that Rich Aurilia gained lots of at bats because of Lopez' departure. He was probably the team's best hitter down the stretch and would have been on the bench much more if this trade is not made.
    However, it also gave more at bats to Hat, who was no longer able to be platooned. IMO, the trade drug down Hat's production down the stretch by forcing the Reds to play him everyday.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  11. #25
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: There's no joy in Cincinnati

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFanAlways1966 View Post
    Remind me to get your user-name at ebay so I never buy anything from you. I can see it now... "Brand new guitar for sale from REDREAD. Unless you ask, I do not need to tell you that the electronics are screwed and the neck is warped. But it was fine when I started the auction. The problems came after I started the 7-day auction. Therefore, buyer beware takes over!"
    Nope, I've got 100% positive feedback on ebay.

    I'm not saying what Bowden did was right. But the failure to disclose that was not the cause of Wayne's horrible lapse of judgement.

    Fact: Maj was only tired, per the Reds' med staff. Not "damaged goods".
    Fact: Wayne said he would've made the trade anyhow, even if he knew about the shot.
    Fact: It was public knowledge that Maj was on the DL earlier this year and pitching hurt all year.

    Thus, failure to disclose the shot was shady, but not the reason why we got hosed in this deal.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!


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