Turn Off Ads?
Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: 60's pitchers

  1. #1
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    34,549

    60's pitchers

    Historians have rated pitchers like Drysdale, Koufax, Gibson, Jenkins and Marichal as some of the best pitchers in baseball history. I don't think anyone can disagree that they were outstanding but my question is, were they overrated due to the era they pitched in?

    After 1963 baseball let umpires call a larger strike zone. Pitchers mounds were very high. Night baseball was almost the rule and not the exception. Several new parks came into being. After 1968, they shrank the strike zone and enforced the height of the mound. I wouldn't say these guys became ineffective but they weren't quite as good as they were before. Of course Koufax had the arm injury that made him retire so we'll never know how he would have done after 1968. Also most, if not all of these guys were not that great before 1964. They all had talent but they couldn't put it all together yet. Was their greatness due to putting it all together or did they get an extra-friendly nudge from the rules? Teams also played the game accordingly. They knew they wouldn't score a lot so they played for 1 run a lot. That had to depress run totals.

    Should historians treat the 60s for pitchers much like they are going to treat the 90s for sluggers? Discuss.
    The Rally Onion wants 150 fans before Opening Day.

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Rally-...24872650873160

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #2
    breath westofyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    43,294

    Re: 60's pitchers

    http://baseballminutia.com/blog/2006...e-of-the-coin/

    For every Koufax there was a Willie Davis, for every Marichal a Hal Lanier, in the span of 1963-1968 there were 36 regulars in MLB who had over 150 games played and a slugging percentage less than .400 and a on base percentage less than .300. in the years of 1953-1958 there were 4. The game had swung drastically to the other end of the spectrum in the years between 1953 and 1968, glove men with little on base skills or pop were all over the place, among them was perhaps the most wonderful outmaker of all, Hal Lanier.

    Lanier was a legacy player, son of Cardinal hurler Max Lanier. Hal was a sought after high school player who surprised most of baseball when he signed with the Giants. While hitting over .300 in the minor leagues in 1964 Lanier got the call, a swift fielding 2nd sacker Lanier hit a respectable .274 in 90 games in San Francisco, however his 5 walks in 401 plate appearances should have been a warning flag the size of Texas. The next season Hal played with an assortment of players at shortstop, but a mid season trade brought Dick Schofield over. Schofield had been the transition shortstop from Grote to Alley in Pittsburgh, when Alley was ready to take over full time the inept bat of Schofield was sent to San Francisco to fill out there shortstop problem.

    Together in San Francisco Schofield and Lanier teamed up for 997 trips to the plate that season, unfortunately for the Giants they made an out 758 times, that’s a robust 76% of the time they came to bat. Lanier honed that skill into an art form and no better was that displayed than in the 1967-1968 seasons. By then Lanier had been moved to shortstop, solving the Giant’s lack of defense at the keystone position and also bettering the bat at second by default. Lanier came to the dish 1075 times in the 67-68 seasons and made an astonishing 871 outs, that’s an out 76% of the time he batted. Of the 212 hits that he had 16% were extra bases, none home runs.

    Lanier’s 1968 season produced the worst secondary average (The formula is (TB-H+BB+SB)/AB) in the history of the modern game, with his 1969 and 1967 season taking slots 3 and 4.

    Meanwhile his teammate Juan Marichal was starting 64 games, piling up 528 innings pitched going 40-19 with a 2.56 era.

    Yin and Yang I guess…

  4. #3
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    6,284

    Re: 60's pitchers

    Here's MLB league pitching stats, from 1903-2005 ...
    Code:
    MAJOR LEAGUES PITCHING STATS
    
    YEAR     W      L   PCT     G      GS      CG    SV     GF       IP         H      R      ER       BB     SO
    1903   1099   1099 .500    2565   2228   1909     51    320   19643      19770    9908    6781    5445    7965 
    1904   1219   1219 .500    2817   2496   2186     42    309   21999      20358    9306    6505    5742    9303 
    1905   1218   1218 .500    3018   2474   1975     54    501   21981      20219    9643    6887    6272    9569 
    1906   1208   1208 .500    3073   2454   1910     89    547   21692      19701    8883    6408    6258    9098 
    1907   1205   1201 .501    3216   2465   1826     86    636   21817      19651    8716    6066    6311    8691 
    1908   1228   1228 .500    3477   2488   1678    108    811   22316      19246    8427    5866    6121    9110 
    1909   1219   1218 .500    3543   2481   1623    117    862   22198.1    19649    8807    6244    6665    9358 
    1910   1223   1223 .500    3714   2497   1550    129    949   22370.1    20329    9593    6883    7486    9790 
    1911   1218   1218 .500    3843   2474   1441    146   1032   22032      21888   11150    8245    7915    9883 
    1912   1219   1219 .500    3836   2461   1437    135   1010   21870      21976   11135    8184    7660    9779 
    1913   1213   1213 .500    4058   2466   1325    165   1134   22065.1    21030    9977    7506    7322    9459 
    1914   1837   1836 .500    6062   3758   2064    231   1684   33508.1    31106   14521   10823   11146   14955 
    1915   1833   1833 .500    6006   3731   2058    230   1661   33326      30459   14215   10744   11120   14115 
    1916   1227   1227 .500    4234   2494   1309    181   1178   22512.2    20311    8885    6796    7085    9525 
    1917   1225   1225 .500    4082   2494   1383    162   1105   22509.2    20356    8944    6705    6890    8645 
    1918   1006   1006 .500    3038   2032   1280    111    749   18372      17064    7379    5649    5726    5873 
    1919   1113   1113 .500    3534   2236   1304     98    933   20113.1    19597    8680    6854    5975    6870 
    1920   1228   1228 .500    3999   2468   1399    143   1060   22255      23278   10769    8552    6824    7269 
    1921   1226   1226 .500    4267   2458   1278    178   1184   22017      24754   11922    9857    6826    6963 
    1922   1231   1231 .500    4431   2478   1238    156   1238   22102      24578   12041    9978    7218    6935 
    1923   1226   1226 .500    4451   2466   1227    167   1232   22078      24194   11876    9791    7596    7007 
    1924   1224   1224 .500    4499   2462   1199    175   1254   21935      24211   11686    9856    7352    6624 
    1925   1224   1224 .500    4510   2457   1209    175   1249   21820      24920   12589   10500    7768    6690 
    1926   1222   1222 .500    4575   2468   1156    194   1308   21913.1    23516   11452    9545    7676    6815 
    1927   1228   1228 .500    4487   2473   1198    196   1257   22044.1    23991   11751    9843    7441    6895 
    1928   1227   1227 .500    4496   2462   1171    218   1285   21992      23697   11612    9806    7658    7093 
    1929   1221   1221 .500    4554   2458   1171    214   1288   21865.1    24648   12754   10866    8037    7038 
    1930   1232   1232 .500    4700   2468   1095    215   1370   21863.2    25603   13689   11679    7646    7932 
    1931   1227   1227 .500    4523   2472   1188    196   1280   21991.2    24037   11893   10071    7669    7907 
    1932   1228   1228 .500    4608   2466   1124    192   1324   22129.1    24106   12105   10267    7540    7858 
    1933   1216   1216 .500    4593   2452   1113    217   1333   21895.1    22966   10981    9262    7348    7440 
    1934   1215   1215 .500    4787   2446   1059    229   1387   21712      23968   11993   10326    7850    8429 
    1935   1219   1219 .500    4712   2456   1093    207   1360   21883.1    24060   12029   10299    7829    8016 
    1936   1228   1228 .500    4782   2476   1075    238   1401   22045      24849   12861   11082    8415    8233 
    1937   1225   1225 .500    4713   2477   1114    215   1360   21909.1    23768   12069   10387    8442    9006 
    1938   1207   1207 .500    4627   2446   1090    210   1357   21653      23290   11966   10306    8629    8342 
    1939   1221   1221 .500    4841   2462   1027    247   1435   21829.1    23369   11870   10343    8483    8518 
    1940   1229   1229 .500    4863   2472   1095    235   1377   22047.2    23003   11570   10080    8265    9056 
    1941   1230   1230 .500    4807   2488   1085    220   1393   22191.1    22534   11168    9595    8891    8836 
    1942   1214   1214 .500    4621   2448   1128    199   1321   21949.2    21170    9996    8499    8385    8334 
    1943   1227   1227 .500    4651   2476   1095    253   1381   22403      21451    9669    8302    8351    8562 
    1944   1231   1231 .500    4699   2484   1123    223   1360   22324.1    22302   10366    8733    7923    8163 
    1945   1218   1218 .500    4655   2460   1140    218   1320   21978.1    21980   10275    8753    8296    8051 
    1946   1233   1233 .500    5180   2484   1053    227   1431   22141.1    21538    9955    8514    8783    9657 
    1947   1232   1232 .500    5289   2486    961    290   1521   22048.2    21993   10826    9518    9209    9133 
    1948   1230   1230 .500    5523   2474    897    314   1577   21931.2    22219   11312   10037    9625    9021 
    1949   1231   1231 .500    5302   2480    979    245   1501   22034.2    22144   11422   10085   10020    8946 
    1950   1230   1230 .500    5246   2476    998    289   1478   21975.1    22559   12013   10641    9955    9565 
    1951   1235   1235 .500    5332   2478    938    276   1540   22209.2    22191   11268    9967    9258    9341 
    1952   1231   1231 .500    5259   2478    949    306   1528   22207.1    21267   10349    9136    8787   10394 
    1953   1229   1229 .500    5592   2480    864    347   1616   22038.1    22459   11426   10135    8689   10218 
    1954   1231   1231 .500    5589   2472    840    349   1632   22130      21908   10827    9581    9033   10215 
    1955   1231   1231 .500    5944   2468    748    359   1720   22022      21610   11069    9781    9048   10825 
    1956   1232   1232 .500    5932   2478    758    370   1720   22092      21653   11031    9734    9000   11507 
    1957   1230   1230 .500    6013   2470    710    391   1760   22344      21865   10636    9516    8175   11964 
    1958   1231   1231 .500    6025   2470    743    404   1727   22049.1    21621   10578    9458    8127   12228 
    1959   1234   1234 .500    5925   2476    742    379   1734   22102.2    21636   10853    9587    8184   12606 
    1960   1232   1232 .500    6065   2472    666    430   1806   22209      21434   10664    9417    8384   12817 
    1961   1423   1423 .500    6987   2860    745    501   2115   25452.1    25066   12942   11390    9897   14952 
    1962   1618   1618 .500    8281   3242    844    618   2398   29004.1    28521   14461   12748   10936   17567 
    1963   1618   1618 .500    8046   3238    865    589   2373   29098.2    27043   12780   11186    9591   18773 
    1964   1620   1620 .500    8381   3252    797    668   2455   29130.1    27669   13124   11592    9621   19212 
    1965   1619   1619 .500    8599   3246    739    678   2507   29172.2    26952   12946   11345   10036   19283 
    1966   1613   1613 .500    8505   3230    736    667   2494   29042      27207   12900   11363    9331   18805 
    1967   1617   1617 .500    8429   3240    782    647   2458   29180.2    26464   12210   10711    9665   19413 
    1968   1619   1619 .500    8040   3250    897    597   2353   29236      25710   11109    9687    9156   19143 
    1969   1943   1943 .500   10117   3892    982    745   2910   34898      32581   15850   14005   13429   22473 
    1970   1943   1943 .500   10356   3888    852    878   3036   34860.2    33555   16880   15051   13727   22374 
    1971   1936   1936 .500    9661   3876   1083    689   2793   34768      32547   15073   13400   12536   20956 
    1972   1858   1858 .500    9127   3718   1009    732   2709   33452      30434   13706   12133   11727   20718 
    1973   1942   1942 .500    9209   3886   1061    819   2825   34873      34010   16376   14518   13100   20358 
    1974   1940   1940 .500    9330   3890   1089    517   2801   34945.1    33969   16046   14083   12963   19495 
    1975   1933   1933 .500    9270   3868   1052    669   2816   34730      33863   16295   14316   13402   19280 
    1976   1939   1939 .500    9364   3878   1039    683   2839   34928.2    33598   15492   13637   12391   18745 
    1977   2103   2103 .500   10621   4206    907    845   3299   37738.1    38037   18803   16768   13757   21722 
    1978   2102   2102 .500   10095   4204   1034    804   3170   37500.1    36508   17251   15362   13566   20058 
    1979   2096   2096 .500   10573   4196    913    840   3283   37478      37911   18713   16669   13601   20035 
    1980   2101   2101 .500   10796   4210    856    902   3354   37861      38144   18053   16162   13190   20212 
    1981   1389   1389 .500    7439   2788    510    605   2278   25095.1    24157   11147    9992    8868   13237 
    1982   2106   2106 .500   11040   4214    734    932   3480   37878.1    37651   18110   16258   13302   21221 
    1983   2106   2106 .500   10978   4218    745    977   3473   37742      37443   18170   16241   13518   21716 
    1984   2104   2104 .500   11177   4210    632    993   3578   37704.2    37381   17921   15965   13320   22500 
    1985   2101   2101 .500   11504   4206    627    977   3579   37658.2    36778   18216   16292   13838   22451 
    1986   2102   2102 .500   11760   4206    579   1004   3627   37674.1    36880   18545   16629   14227   24706 
    1987   2105   2105 .500   12157   4210    561    971   3649   37574.2    37895   19883   17925   14389   25099 
    1988   2098   2098 .500   11531   4200    622   1049   3578   37667.2    36244   17380   15626   12984   23355 
    1989   2103   2103 .500   12111   4212    483   1069   3729   37715      36293   17405   15551   13528   23650 
    1990   2105   2105 .500   12694   4210    429   1113   3781   37563.2    36817   17919   16116   13852   23853 
    1991   2104   2104 .500   13171   4208    366   1132   3842   37769.2    36558   18127   16410   13984   24390 
    1992   2106   2106 .500   13251   4212    419   1109   3793   37829.2    36544   17341   15744   13682   23538 
    1993   2268   2268 .500   14839   4538    371   1192   4167   40507      41088   20864   18861   15110   26310 
    1994   1599   1599 .500   10643   3200    255    777   2945   28586.1    29743   15752   14330   11131   19766 
    1995   2016   2016 .500   13915   4034    275   1006   3759   36032      36975   19554   17822   14240   25425 
    1996   2266   2266 .500   15594   4534    290   1116   4244   40560.2    42320   22831   20780   16093   29308 
    1997   2266   2266 .500   15857   4532    266   1139   4266   40454      41471   21604   19730   15666   29937 
    1998   2430   2430 .500   16827   4864    302   1265   4559   43434.2    44489   23268   21387   16447   31893 
    1999   2428   2426 .500   17276   4856    236   1217   4620   43210      45327   24691   22606   17891   31119 
    2000   2428   2428 .500   17220   4858    234   1178   4624   43244.1    45246   24971   22918   18238   31356 
    2001   2428   2428 .500   17624   4858    199   1210   4659   43287.1    43879   23199   21247   15806   32404 
    2002   2425   2425 .500   17611   4852    214   1224   4638   43269      43272   22408   20570   16246   31394 
    2003   2429   2429 .500   17817   4860    209   1199   4651   43335      44057   22978   21186   15889   30801 
    2004   2428   2428 .500   18272   4856    150   1230   4706   43394      44522   23376   21527   16222   31828 
    2005   2430   2430 .500   18032   4862    189   1254   4673   43232.1    43991   22325   20612   15207   30644 
    
    TOT  162759 162751 .500  801910 327038  99173  53467 227712 2923461    2911860 1434345 1243282 1059074 1567912 
    
    
    YEAR  ERA     HR   H/9   BR/9  SO/9  BB/9  SO/BB   SHO     WP    IBB    HBP    BFP      BK
    1903  3.11    334  9.06 11.90  3.65  2.49  1.46    167    446      0    754    81174    12 
    1904  2.66    330  8.33 11.01  3.81  2.35  1.62    249    508      0    811    90967    42 
    1905  2.82    328  8.28 11.19  3.92  2.57  1.53    223    527      0    828    58332    22 
    1906  2.66    257  8.17 11.09  3.77  2.60  1.45    275    461      0    774    55953    29 
    1907  2.50    238  8.11 11.03  3.59  2.60  1.38    282    473      0    785    88547    23 
    1908  2.37    267  7.76 10.54  3.67  2.47  1.49    290    477      0    768    89089    25 
    1909  2.53    262  7.97 10.98  3.79  2.70  1.40    271    568      0    778    89226    39 
    1910  2.77    359  8.18 11.51  3.94  3.01  1.31    234    544      0    805    90221    33 
    1911  3.37    514  8.94 12.52  4.04  3.23  1.25    168    539      0    836    91841    49 
    1912  3.37    442  9.04 12.49  4.02  3.15  1.28    160    559      0    718    91855    45 
    1913  3.06    472  8.58 11.85  3.86  2.99  1.29    198    529      0    690    91793    51 
    1914  2.91    705  8.35 11.62  4.02  2.99  1.34    341    799      0   1003   134289    50 
    1915  2.90    625  8.23 11.50  3.81  3.00  1.27    348    730      0   1009   129250    69 
    1916  2.72    381  8.12 11.20  3.81  2.83  1.34    236    500      0    629    91095    51 
    1917  2.68    334  8.14 11.12  3.46  2.75  1.25    248    412      0    575    91661    38 
    1918  2.77    234  8.36 11.39  2.88  2.81  1.03    199    299      0    458    75635    23 
    1919  3.07    446  8.77 11.68  3.07  2.67  1.15    189    374      0    529    82870    43 
    1920  3.46    629  9.41 12.39  2.94  2.76  1.07    186    408      0    546    93899    52 
    1921  4.03    937 10.12 13.14  2.85  2.79  1.02    120    360      0    564    95612    50 
    1922  4.06   1054 10.01 13.20  2.82  2.94  0.96    146    382      0    609    96065    55 
    1923  3.99    981  9.86 13.20  2.86  3.10  0.92    127    359      0    599    96258    40 
    1924  4.04    896  9.93 13.18  2.72  3.02  0.90    137    338      0    548    95693    53 
    1925  4.33   1168 10.28 13.69  2.76  3.20  0.86    106    348      0    501    96251    35 
    1926  3.92    863  9.66 13.01  2.80  3.15  0.89    134    309      0    479    95079    39 
    1927  4.02    922  9.79 13.03  2.82  3.04  0.93    127    337      0    484    95676    43 
    1928  4.01   1095  9.70 13.02  2.90  3.13  0.93    132    286      0    460    96571    29 
    1929  4.47   1349 10.15 13.62  2.90  3.31  0.88    121    355      0    404    96278    44 
    1930  4.81   1564 10.54 13.85  3.27  3.15  1.04     91    368      0    401    97223    36 
    1931  4.12   1069  9.84 13.13  3.24  3.14  1.03    134    347      0    370    96196    42 
    1932  4.18   1357  9.80 13.02  3.20  3.07  1.04    119    368      0    367    96601    41 
    1933  3.81   1067  9.44 12.61  3.06  3.02  1.01    166    392      0    353    94530    35 
    1934  4.28   1344  9.94 13.33  3.49  3.25  1.07    136    427      0    341    95515    41 
    1935  4.24   1326  9.90 13.27  3.30  3.22  1.02    149    419      0    381    96186    37 
    1936  4.52   1363 10.14 13.75  3.36  3.44  0.98    118    557      0    412    97858    41 
    1937  4.27   1430  9.76 13.36  3.70  3.47  1.07    134    393      0    318    96118    41 
    1938  4.28   1474  9.68 13.41  3.47  3.59  0.97    124    410      0    348    95336    46 
    1939  4.26   1443  9.63 13.28  3.51  3.50  1.00    127    445      0    354    95925    49 
    1940  4.11   1572  9.39 12.91  3.70  3.37  1.10    140    457      0    354    95912    52 
    1941  3.89   1333  9.14 12.87  3.58  3.61  0.99    162    481      0    310    96484    33 
    1942  3.48   1070  8.68 12.26  3.42  3.44  0.99    178    389      0    337    93929    44 
    1943  3.34    905  8.62 12.10  3.44  3.35  1.03    196    354      0    328    94992    56 
    1944  3.52   1034  8.99 12.32  3.29  3.19  1.03    177    388      0    340    95629    44 
    1945  3.58   1001  9.00 12.54  3.30  3.40  0.97    186    358      0    355    94745    51 
    1946  3.46   1214  8.75 12.45  3.93  3.57  1.10    199    347      0    314    94956    36 
    1947  3.89   1564  8.98 12.86  3.73  3.76  0.99    176    390      0    306    94931    51 
    1948  4.12   1556  9.12 13.21  3.70  3.95  0.94    143    433      0    337    95453    47 
    1949  4.12   1699  9.04 13.29  3.65  4.09  0.89    172    454      0    370    95844    56 
    1950  4.36   2073  9.24 13.50  3.92  4.08  0.96    139    432      0    437    96364   123 
    1951  4.04   1865  8.99 12.93  3.79  3.75  1.01    166    442      0    449    96005    65 
    1952  3.70   1701  8.62 12.38  4.21  3.56  1.18    180    405      0    483    94809    40 
    1953  4.14   2076  9.17 12.92  4.17  3.55  1.18    156    464      0    487    95420    50 
    1954  3.90   1937  8.91 12.76  4.15  3.67  1.13    166    402      0    441    95541    45 
    1955  4.00   2224  8.83 12.73  4.42  3.70  1.20    159    473    736    498    95020    36 
    1956  3.97   2294  8.82 12.68  4.69  3.67  1.28    127    492    783    481    95233    43 
    1957  3.83   2202  8.81 12.31  4.82  3.29  1.46    139    480    740    511    95395    46 
    1958  3.86   2240  8.83 12.35  4.99  3.32  1.50    132    526    680    499    94149    70 
    1959  3.90   2250  8.81 12.34  5.13  3.33  1.54    158    557    707    496    94722    60 
    1960  3.82   2128  8.69 12.28  5.19  3.40  1.53    140    604    730    488    94776    55 
    1961  4.03   2730  8.86 12.57  5.29  3.50  1.51    154    780    732    573   109572    63 
    1962  3.96   3001  8.85 12.46  5.45  3.39  1.61    168    949    818    709   124544    92 
    1963  3.46   2704  8.36 11.55  5.81  2.97  1.96    234    914    933    714   122356   194 
    1964  3.58   2762  8.55 11.74  5.94  2.97  2.00    221    979   1015    694   122993    65 
    1965  3.50   2688  8.31 11.63  5.95  3.10  1.92    191   1046   1130    720   122763    72 
    1966  3.52   2743  8.43 11.53  5.83  2.89  2.02    194   1039   1088    682   121688    96 
    1967  3.30   2299  8.16 11.37  5.99  2.98  2.01    226    985   1295    751   121848   101 
    1968  2.98   1995  7.91 10.97  5.89  2.82  2.09    279   1007   1223    778   120823    83 
    1969  3.61   3119  8.40 12.09  5.80  3.46  1.67    242   1284   1436    882   148192   131 
    1970  3.89   3429  8.66 12.42  5.78  3.54  1.63    188   1249   1464    825   149324   128 
    1971  3.47   2863  8.43 11.88  5.42  3.25  1.67    265   1115   1396    821   146700    97 
    1972  3.26   2534  8.19 11.55  5.57  3.16  1.77    295   1069   1378    751   139958    92 
    1973  3.75   3102  8.78 12.35  5.25  3.38  1.55    236   1199   1356    755   148789    95 
    1974  3.63   2649  8.75 12.29  5.02  3.34  1.50    227   1086   1353    774   148851   186 
    1975  3.71   2698  8.78 12.45  5.00  3.47  1.44    223   1158   1338    761   148613   204 
    1976  3.51   2235  8.66 12.03  4.83  3.19  1.51    261   1047   1156    684   147598   176 
    1977  4.00   3644  9.07 12.54  5.18  3.28  1.58    176   1166   1297    791   161545   235 
    1978  3.69   2956  8.76 12.20  4.81  3.26  1.48    238   1054   1338    772   159192   273 
    1979  4.00   3433  9.10 12.55  4.81  3.27  1.47    175   1146   1366    754   160378   166 
    1980  3.84   3087  9.07 12.36  4.80  3.14  1.53    189   1031   1435    657   161210   257 
    1981  3.58   1781  8.66 12.01  4.75  3.18  1.49    135    714    895    464   105892   181 
    1982  3.86   3379  8.95 12.27  5.04  3.16  1.60    161   1091   1319    677   161104   256 
    1983  3.87   3301  8.93 12.32  5.18  3.22  1.61    180   1076   1379    717   160615   266 
    1984  3.81   3258  8.92 12.26  5.37  3.18  1.69    151   1129   1270    668   160566   283 
    1985  3.89   3602  8.79 12.26  5.37  3.31  1.62    163   1141   1337    699   160320   227 
    1986  3.97   3813  8.81 12.40  5.90  3.40  1.74    139   1323   1289    812   160858   289 
    1987  4.29   4458  9.08 12.72  6.01  3.45  1.74    138   1333   1287    842   161922   356 
    1988  3.73   3180  8.66 11.98  5.58  3.10  1.80    182   1262   1367    918   159380   924 
    1989  3.71   3083  8.66 12.08  5.64  3.23  1.75    152   1286   1446    801   160033   407 
    1990  3.86   3317  8.82 12.35  5.72  3.32  1.72    140   1355   1384    861   160316   288 
    1991  3.91   3383  8.71 12.26  5.81  3.33  1.74    107   1390   1229    905   160746   241 
    1992  3.75   3038  8.69 12.18  5.60  3.26  1.72    146   1296   1315    980   160545   219 
    1993  4.19   4030  9.13 12.75  5.85  3.36  1.74     99   1473   1477   1200   174564   298 
    1994  4.51   3306  9.36 13.14  6.22  3.50  1.78     69   1162   1008    876   124483   174 
    1995  4.45   4081  9.24 13.10  6.35  3.56  1.79     88   1414   1105   1219   156703   199 
    1996  4.61   4962  9.39 13.27  6.50  3.57  1.82     84   1553   1343   1404   177261   197 
    1997  4.39   4640  9.23 13.03  6.66  3.49  1.91     89   1482   1169   1449   175541   188 
    1998  4.43   5064  9.22 12.95  6.61  3.41  1.94    101   1605   1062   1583   188225   205 
    1999  4.71   5528  9.44 13.50  6.48  3.73  1.74     64   1632   1105   1578   189692   177 
    2000  4.77   5693  9.42 13.54  6.53  3.80  1.72     72   1518   1208   1572   190261   161 
    2001  4.42   5458  9.12 12.80  6.74  3.29  2.05     74   1484   1384   1890   186976   151 
    2002  4.28   5059  9.00 12.74  6.53  3.38  1.93     87   1494   1452   1746   186615   160 
    2003  4.40   5207  9.15 12.83  6.40  3.30  1.94     72   1546   1316   1849   187449   158 
    2004  4.46   5451  9.23 12.98  6.60  3.36  1.96     69   1478   1381   1850   188539   157 
    2005  4.29   5017  9.16 12.70  6.38  3.17  2.02     63   1439   1216   1797   186292   161 
    
    TOT   3.83 225557  8.96 12.45  4.83  3.26  1.48  17310  80660  60666  74415 12414812 11725 
    
    In a very general sense, we can categorize each decade as such:
    • 1900s: Insane pitching era
    • 1910s: Great pitching era
    • 1920s: Above average hitting era
    • 1930s: Great hitting era
    • 1940s: Two splits: good pitching era during WWII, above average hitting era after WWII
    • 1950s: Neutral to slightly above average hitting era
    • 1960s: Very good pitching era
    • 1970s: Good pitching era
    • 1980s: Neutral
    • 1990s: Great hitting era
    • 2000s: Great hitting era

    There were mid-decade swings, but that's the general picture of what we've seen in the last 100 years.

    For most fans, it's difficult to properly put players from each era in a proper context to compare them. For example, Hack Wilson's 191 RBI in 1930 is held in pretty high regard, and it'd be major news if a hitter approached or broke that record, but it's rarely mentioned that 1930 may have been the greatest single season for offense in baseball history.

    Similarly, pitchers from the 1960s are held in high regard because of their miniscule ERAs, but rarely is it mentioned that league ERAs during that time were in the low to mid 3s, and they even sunk as low as 2.98 in 1968. Toss up a 3.25 ERA today, and fans may put your name in contention for a Cy Young Award. Toss up a 3.25 ERA in 1968, and you were a below average pitcher.

    Of those pitchers listed by Chip, none of them makes my own Top 10, and Gibson is the highest at 14th. Two caveats that I should mention, however, is that I'm including Negro Leaguers and have Satchel Paige ranked ahead of Gibson, and I also gave Bob Feller WWII credit and have him ahead of Gibson. Sandy Koufax had four truly legendary seasons and put together a great peak, but he did pitch in Dodger Stadium during the 1960s, and he just doesn't have the career value that was amassed by many other legendary pitchers.

    Marichal and Jenkins are definite Hall of Famers, but I believe they're only middle tier Hall of Famers. Drysdale is a low tier Hall of Famer and people can make a case that he doesn't belong, but I don't have much of a problem with him being in the Hall of Fame.
    Last edited by Cyclone792; 09-21-2006 at 09:38 PM.
    Barry Larkin - HOF, 2012

    Put an end to the Lost Decade.

  5. #4
    Plays The Right Way Hap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    796.357
    Posts
    1,720

    Re: 60's pitchers

    This is a bit off the subject, but how do we have more wins than losses in 1907 and 1909?
    .

  6. #5
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    28,450

    Re: 60's pitchers

    A byproduct of tiny ERAs in leagues where scoring is scarce is that starting pitchers also log a lot more innings (because they can stay in the game with less than their best stuff and not get their heads kicked in). Combine big innings totals (and the counting that come with them) with tiny ERAs and you've got the makings of what looks like an era of supermen on the mound.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  7. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    The Bush Leagues
    Posts
    9,353

    Re: 60's pitchers

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    A byproduct of tiny ERAs in leagues where scoring is scarce is that starting pitchers also log a lot more innings (because they can stay in the game with less than their best stuff and not get their heads kicked in). Combine big innings totals (and the counting that come with them) with tiny ERAs and you've got the makings of what looks like an era of supermen on the mound.
    And I'll add fewer pitches per inning. When homeruns are scarce, you can afford to throw it right down Peachtree.
    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle

  8. #7
    Member redsrule2500's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    3,217

    Re: 60's pitchers

    Quote Originally Posted by Hap View Post
    This is a bit off the subject, but how do we have more wins than losses in 1907 and 1909?
    Good question...
    redsrule2500
    Go Reds!
    Baseball Bliss
    “I’m a normal guy blessed with the ability to hit a baseball.” - Sean Casey

  9. #8
    breath westofyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    43,294

    Re: 60's pitchers

    Quote Originally Posted by Hap View Post
    This is a bit off the subject, but how do we have more wins than losses in 1907 and 1909?
    Bug

    1203-1203 by my count

    1907 STANDINGS

    Code:
    AMERICAN LEAGUE
    TEAM         W    L   PCT  GB
    Tigers       92   58  .613  -
    A's          88   57  .607   1.5
    White Sox    87   64  .576   5.5
    Indians      85   67  .559   8
    Yankees      70   78  .473  21
    Browns       69   83  .454  24
    Red Sox      59   90  .396  32.5
    Senators     49  102  .325  43.5
    
    NATIONAL LEAGUE
    TEAM         W    L   PCT  GB
    Cubs        107   45  .704  -
    Pirates      91   63  .591  17
    Phillies     83   64  .565  21.5
    Giants       82   71  .536  25.5
    Dodgers      65   83  .439  40
    Reds         66   87  .431  41.5
    Braves       58   90  .392  47
    Cardinals    52  101  .340  55.5

  10. #9
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Out Wayne
    Posts
    22,928

    Re: 60's pitchers

    The stats and reputations of Koufax, Gibson, Marichal, Drysdale and Jenkins were all helped by the era in which they pitched, but they were great pitchers nonetheless. Drysadle is the only one in that bunch whose HOF election I would question (Bill James finally voted "no" but I'd still vote "yes" on inducting the "Big D").
    Drysdale was one of the NL's best pitchers before the 1963-68 era, and won his only Cy Young award in 1962, when he was a 25 game winner.
    Almost all of Marichal's great years did come between 1963 and 1968, but he did lead the NL in ERA and win 21 games in 1969.
    Gibson remained effective after the mound was raised in 1969, winning 20 games with a 2.18 ERA in 1969 and winning his second Cy Young award in 1970, when he won 23 games.
    Jenkins had five of his seven 20+ win seasons after 1968, so he really doesn't fit in this group.
    Koufax is the only one of the group who pretty much had all his great seasons in the 1963-68 era, although he did set a league record in 1961 with 269 Ks while winning 18 games and was the league ERA leader in 1962 in an injury shortened 14 win season, but during 1963-66 he outpitched everybody.
    In the 2001 edition of his new "Historical Baseball Abstract" Bill James ranked Gibson 8th, Koufax 10th, Marichal 21st, Jenkins 23rd and Drysdale 33rd. I expect their rankings would drop if James updated the book to take into account the effectiveness of several active pitchers since then, as he had Roger Clemens 11th, Greg Maddux 14th, Pedro Martinez 29th and Randy Johnson 49th. Those four guys would surely be ranked higher now.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25