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Thread: Coco Crisp in CF in 2007?

  1. #46
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: Coco Crisp in CF in 2007?

    nm
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  3. #47
    Senor Votto Degenerate39's Avatar
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    Re: Coco Crisp in CF in 2007?

    I've always liked Coco Crisp, personally. His downsides outweight the good though. He pasically has no power, he's only batted for 300 once in his short career. He doesn't steal that many bases like we need. But he has a good glove which is what we need in our outfield. He's only got like 10 errors in his career. That might not be saying much when Griffey only has 40 errors in his career which is more than doubled Coco's. But with the addition of Coco's glove in center it might convince old man Griffey to move over to Right Field or Left Field. Then we'd have Griffey, Dunn, and Coco in our outfield which allows Brandon Phillips to move to Short (which seems to be a popular opinion on here) and it allows Ryan Freel to move to second for the majority of the season.

  4. #48
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    Re: Coco Crisp in CF in 2007?

    I like Crisp. For both name value and skills.

    I also would like the Reds to inquire Arizona about Chris Young.
    I hope it's never sunny in Philly again.

  5. #49
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    Re: Coco Crisp in CF in 2007?

    Quote Originally Posted by degenerate10 View Post
    He doesn't steal that many bases like we need.
    He could, though. The Indians and Red Sox are notoriously ultra cautious about stealing, especially since he was often hitting in front of their big bats.
    "Reality tells us there are no guarantees. Except that some day Jon Lester will be on that list of 100-game winners." - Peter Gammons

  6. #50
    post hype sleeper cincinnati chili's Avatar
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    Re: Coco Crisp in CF in 2007?

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Crisp was an .800 OPS player at ages 24 and 25
    And on OBP of .344. While I realize that a lot of teams employ speedy leadoff hitters with pedestrian OBPs, I don't subscribe to that theory.

    It's the one spot in the lineup that leads off over 20% of innings (no other spot in the lineup leads off mor than 10% off innings). Particularly in the NL - where there are few RBI opportunities due to the pitcher - it SHOULD to be a high OBP guy.

    I never said I didn't like him. I just said he wasn't a leadoff hitter, and that he hasn't proven he's worth the money.
    How, then, are those people of the future—who are taking steroids every day—going to look back on baseball players who used steroids? They're going to look back on them as pioneers. They're going to look back at it and say "So what?" - Bill James, Cooperstown and the 'Roids

  7. #51
    post hype sleeper cincinnati chili's Avatar
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    Re: Coco Crisp in CF in 2007?

    Quote Originally Posted by blumj View Post
    I am. I'm not sure about some of the others, but that one didn't happen until after he came back officially. If he didn't have the power to make decisions at that exact moment, he's never had any power at all.
    Yeah, this article suggests you are correct:

    http://www.boston.com/sports/basebal...praise/?page=1

    unless Theo was doing a major spin job to cover the organization's back.
    How, then, are those people of the future—who are taking steroids every day—going to look back on baseball players who used steroids? They're going to look back on them as pioneers. They're going to look back at it and say "So what?" - Bill James, Cooperstown and the 'Roids

  8. #52
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Coco Crisp in CF in 2007?

    Quote Originally Posted by cincinnati chili View Post
    I never said I didn't like him. I just said he wasn't a leadoff hitter, and that he hasn't proven he's worth the money.
    I agree. I'd want him for his slugging and bat him 6th. Don't really care about the steals. Dunn, EE, JR, Crisp. 3,4,5,6. Right now there is no power for the #6 spot.

    Red Sox won't let him go w/o a viable option in CF. Since we've been looking at that a lot lately, I'm pretty convinced there aren't any.

  9. #53
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    Re: Coco Crisp in CF in 2007?

    Quote Originally Posted by cincinnati chili View Post
    And on OBP of .344. While I realize that a lot of teams employ speedy leadoff hitters with pedestrian OBPs, I don't subscribe to that theory.

    It's the one spot in the lineup that leads off over 20% of innings (no other spot in the lineup leads off mor than 10% off innings). Particularly in the NL - where there are few RBI opportunities due to the pitcher - it SHOULD to be a high OBP guy.

    I never said I didn't like him. I just said he wasn't a leadoff hitter, and that he hasn't proven he's worth the money.
    I don't think M2 would put him at leadoff - I know I wouldn't, but I would take him on the Reds in a heartbeat.

    I'd lean to something like this:

    1B Dunn
    2B Not sure - Todd Walker would be nice though
    SS Phillips
    3B EdE
    LF Freel
    CF Crisp
    RF Griffey
    C Ross/Valentin

    Then you need two things - a strong backup who can play second and short (yes, even Aurilia would do) and a strong 4th outfielder to rest Freel and Junior and get 2 to 3 starts every week (think Michael Tucker in 99).
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  10. #54
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    Re: Coco Crisp in CF in 2007?

    Quote Originally Posted by cincinnati chili View Post
    And on OBP of .344. While I realize that a lot of teams employ speedy leadoff hitters with pedestrian OBPs, I don't subscribe to that theory.

    It's the one spot in the lineup that leads off over 20% of innings (no other spot in the lineup leads off mor than 10% off innings). Particularly in the NL - where there are few RBI opportunities due to the pitcher - it SHOULD to be a high OBP guy.

    I never said I didn't like him. I just said he wasn't a leadoff hitter, and that he hasn't proven he's worth the money.
    Call me crazy, but I'll bet that OB number goes up during the seasons he plays between ages 27 and 30. Combine that with his new-found efficiency in base stealing, his glove and 40-double/15-homer power and you've got a good player. I'm not really all that concerned with where he hits. All I know is that where to bat an effective player like that is a problem I wish the Reds had more of.

    As for worth the money, I'll invoke Beane here. Pay for the performance you expect, not the last three years. Given what Crisp was doing when healthy in 2004 and 2005 I think it's pretty safe to project that his prime seasons will make his contract a relative steal.
    Last edited by M2; 09-26-2006 at 10:35 AM.
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  11. #55
    Member blumj's Avatar
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    Re: Coco Crisp in CF in 2007?

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Call me crazy, but I'll bet that OB number goes up during the seasons he plays between ages 27 and 30. Combine that with his new-found efficiency in base stealing, his glove and 40-double/15-homer power and you've got a good player. I'm not really all that concerned with where he hits. All I know is that where to bat an effective player like that is a problem I wish the Reds had more of.

    As for worth the money, I'll invoke Beane here. Pay for the performance you expect, not the last three years. Given what Crisp was doing when healthy in 2004 and 2005 I think it's pretty safe to project that his prime seasons will make his contract a relative steal.
    I don't think you're crazy at all. You're seeing exactly what the Red Sox saw in him before they acquired him, and why I find it so hard to believe that they would abandon their own evaluation of a 26 year old player less than a year later, after an injury depleted season. Unless they're afraid the injury will have a long term effect, or that his experience of the past year has soured him on playing in Boston to the point of no return, it would be stupid. They trusted their evaluation of him enough to trade two very good prospects for him less than a year ago. There is no valid reason for them not to continue to trust it now.
    "Reality tells us there are no guarantees. Except that some day Jon Lester will be on that list of 100-game winners." - Peter Gammons

  12. #56
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    Re: Coco Crisp in CF in 2007?

    Quote Originally Posted by blumj View Post
    I don't think you're crazy at all. You're seeing exactly what the Red Sox saw in him before they acquired him, and why I find it so hard to believe that they would abandon their own evaluation of a 26 year old player less than a year later, after an injury depleted season. Unless they're afraid the injury will have a long term effect, or that his experience of the past year has soured him on playing in Boston to the point of no return, it would be stupid. They trusted their evaluation of him enough to trade two very good prospects for him less than a year ago. There is no valid reason for them not to continue to trust it now.
    True enough. Sanity might prevail.
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  13. #57
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    Re: Coco Crisp in CF in 2007?

    Coco Crisp has showed terrible range this season.

    His perception as a great defensive player is just that.
    Last edited by Cedric; 09-26-2006 at 12:10 PM.
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.

  14. #58
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    Re: Coco Crisp in CF in 2007?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric View Post
    Coco Crisp has showed terrible range this season.

    His perception as a great defensive player is just that.
    He's not a great defensive player as a CF at all. Who is that's actually available, and has any offensive value whatsoever, and is as affordable, at least in salary? That's not exactly a long list.
    "Reality tells us there are no guarantees. Except that some day Jon Lester will be on that list of 100-game winners." - Peter Gammons

  15. #59
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    Re: Coco Crisp in CF in 2007?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric View Post
    Coco Crisp has showed terrible range this season.

    His perception as a great defensive player is just that.
    Well, you haven't seen me use the word "great" in relation to his defense. You also won't see me use the word "terrible."
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  16. #60
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    Re: Coco Crisp in CF in 2007?

    Range factor is a bad way to judge a players fielding range

    Example:

    Ken Griffey Jr.'s range was better in 2006, than 1990.

    It's PO + A per game (9 innings).

    What happens if balls aren't hit your way? You can only be so good to get to certain balls.

    Basically, a player with great range and loaded with ground ball pitchers or something that would cause him to not have balls hit his way could have the same range as a player with decent range that has more opportunities.


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