Ready for some Bengals football!! Bengals v. Bucs -- October 15, 2006

[Hoosier Red]

[

Yeah, that interception had nothing to do with a bad throw by the QB. It was that magical clutch instinct that we all have deep down inside of us if only we have the will to overcome bad calls by referees.

We can also add this statement to the thread, "Things That Drive You Crazy":

I hate sports cliches.

???

I'm pretty sure I didn't use clutch but if you want to read that into it, fine.

It's ignorant beyond belief to say the bad call had nothing to do with Tampa Bay winning the game.
It's equally ignorant to say the Bengals lost because of 1(now we're expanding 2) bad calls.
OF COURSE IT HAD AN IMPACT.
Every play has an impact. Every call and no-call has an impact. Some have more than others. But how many plays were there after the terrible(and it was a terrible call.)
Good teams react well to bad calls and make a play that makes the call moot.
Bad teams use the call as an excuse.
It doesn't happen every time but over the course of the season the better teams will win.

Just curious is this the only time a weak late hit call affects the game?
Hypothetical, Bengals Panthers this week. Say its 14-10 Panthers.
Say its 3 minutes left in the 3rd quarter, the Bengals have the ball on their own 10. Same weak call, the Bengals go on to march the remaining 75 yds score a touchdown, and win 31 to 28.

Can the Panthers blame the call for losing the game. After all it led to the Bengals scoring the go ahead touchdown, and one touchdown would have made a difference in the game obviously.

So if that doesn't count in "legitimate excuses as to why we lost," is their a grid, like the one coaches use for fourth quarter 2 point conversions?

Like a sliding scale of time left in game, vs points discrepancy in final score.

How can we tell?

[traderumor]

???

I'm pretty sure I didn't use clutch but if you want to read that into it, fine.

It's ignorant beyond belief to say the bad call had nothing to do with Tampa Bay winning the game.
It's equally ignorant to say the Bengals lost because of 1(now we're expanding 2) bad calls.
OF COURSE IT HAD AN IMPACT.
Every play has an impact. Every call and no-call has an impact. Some have more than others. But how many plays were there after the terrible(and it was a terrible call.)
Good teams react well to bad calls and make a play that makes the call moot.
Bad teams use the call as an excuse.
It doesn't happen every time but over the course of the season the better teams will win.

Just curious is this the only time a weak late hit call affects the game?
Hypothetical, Bengals Panthers this week. Say its 14-10 Panthers.
Say its 3 minutes left in the 3rd quarter, the Bengals have the ball on their own 10. Same weak call, the Bengals go on to march the remaining 75 yds score a touchdown, and win 31 to 28.

Can the Panthers blame the call for losing the game. After all it led to the Bengals scoring the go ahead touchdown, and one touchdown would have made a difference in the game obviously.

So if that doesn't count in "legitimate excuses as to why we lost," is their a grid, like the one coaches use for fourth quarter 2 point conversions?

Like a sliding scale of time left in game, vs points discrepancy in final score.

How can we tell?

You're losing ground fast. Those attributing that call to the loss did so because of all the other factors (time left in the game, position on the field, down and distance). It really isn't that hard to project because of how late it was in the game, just as it would have been very easy to say that if the winning TD had not been reversed, that would have been the difference in the game. I like to complicate matters sometimes, but usually it is when the facts are not in my favor (true confessions). That seems to be the case here for those wanting to say "stuff happened after the call, the Bengals still could have stopped them."

[macro]

Every play has an impact. Every call and no-call has an impact.

The butterfly effect, if you will.

[Roy Tucker]

The butterfly effect, if you will.

TYME SEFARI INC.
SEFARIS TU ANY YEER EN THE PAST.
YU NAIM THE ANIMALL.
WEE TAEK YU THAIR.
YU SHOOT ITT.

[Hoosier Red]

You're losing ground fast. Those attributing that call to the loss did so because of all the other factors (time left in the game, position on the field, down and distance). It really isn't that hard to project because of how late it was in the game, just as it would have been very easy to say that if the winning TD had not been reversed, that would have been the difference in the game. I like to complicate matters sometimes, but usually it is when the facts are not in my favor (true confessions). That seems to be the case here for those wanting to say "stuff happened after the call, the Bengals still could have stopped them."

Sorry to complicate it.
So when is it acceptable?
If the play had been at the Tampa Bay 20 yard line?
7 minutes left in the game. I've seen people even bring in Geathers ticky tack late hit to support their argument, is that one fair game?

Tell me where you can point to a play and say the official's bad call did or did not cost us this game.

[Hoosier Red]

And just curious, how did the officials call have more of an impact than Marvin's terrible time management at the end of the game. If he uses his timeouts wisely, the touchdown is at the 1:30 mark, maybe even 2 minutes.

Keep timeouts for offense my left foot, that is always a losing strategy.

But your right, it was the fact that Mike Carey called a weak late hit on Justin Smith that lost the team the game. They had no chance after that call.
They didn't give up the last 25 yds on their own. They didn't allow a completion on 4th and goal. IT was all Mike Carey

[traderumor]

Sorry to complicate it.
So when is it acceptable?
If the play had been at the Tampa Bay 20 yard line?
7 minutes left in the game. I've seen people even bring in Geathers ticky tack late hit to support their argument, is that one fair game?

Tell me where you can point to a play and say the official's bad call did or did not cost us this game.

Dude, give it a rest. We disagree, your reasoning is that it is never ok to blame an official's call for the loss of a game, I would imagine unless it was the last play of the game and all other things were equal during the game and the only thing hanging in the balance is the official's call on the last play of the game. Others have made very reasonable assumptions regarding the outcome if the play had been called properly in the first place. I get your point, I just happen to disagree for reasons I have clearly enumerated in the thread.

[registerthis]

As for flags affecting the outcome -- the flag is a non-issue if the Bengals score more points earlier in the game and put the Bucs out. Instead, they kick field goals and never run away with the game. A team's loss always comes back to the plays it made or didn't make. Lack of plays on both sides of the ball (Bucs and Bengals) put the game in a position where a call could influence the outcome. As far as I'm concerned, neither side has a real right to cry about the call (however it would've gone) when they don't make enough plays to render the issue moot.

I don't know if I necessarily agree with this. You could make the same argument for practically any loss a team incurs, whether or not a bad call was involved. Suppose a team loses by two touchdowns--you could also use the above explanation to say "They didn't lose because the other team scored two more touchdowns than they did, they lost because they had drives where they didn't score thus putting themselves in position to lose the game." It's the "they didn't beat us, we beat ourselves" line of reasoning, and it's rarely true.

In the Bengals case, the blown call had every bit as much to do with the loss as any plays the Bucs made. I can't discern a reason for why a bad call should be ignored or rendered moot any more than, say, a good play made by the Bucs.

[Dom Heffner]

If theplay happens in the first quarter, you at least get a chance to "overcome it."

When it happens with a little over a minute ot play, the chances to overcome it become small.

There isn't a way to make more time in a football game.

[Hoosier Red]

I understand that Dom. The problem with the line of thinking is there was 3 minutes left when it happened. Certainly not an eternity. But it wasn't like a bogus pass interference call put the ball at the one with :30 left or anything.

Which do you think had more of an impact, Marvin Lewis allowing the clock to run down to :35 seconds or the penalty?

[Dom Heffner]

Which do you think had more of an impact, Marvin Lewis allowing the clock to run down to :35 seconds or the penalty?

The penalty.

Without it, we don't need to worry about the clock.

[Javy Pornstache]

Just weighing in if I may, I am a huge Bengals fan, but you don't blame that loss on the officials. Of course there were some terrible calls, particularly the roughing the passer on the last drive, but you can't blame it all at their feet. There was terrible clock management, there was horrifically bad play-calling from the sidelines/coaches' box, and the fact that the Bengals offense scored only 13 points for the second straight game had a lot to do with it. If you go on the road in the NFL, regardless of who you play, and you hold the opposition to 14 points, seven of which came in the final minute, you have got to win that game. That's not easy to do, to hold a team like that down on the road.

One very troubling thing I've noticed (and it may have been covered elsewhere in this thread, I apologize if so), but the Bengals set themselves up CONSISTENTLY in 2nd and long and 3rd and long situations. It seems a lock that on more drives than not, every game, they start with an incomplete pass on first down, then Rudi Johnson bounces up the middle where there's no hole for anywhere from 3 to -5 yards, and bam, you've got a third and long and the defense has you where they want you. Sure, a draw play may work every now and again but they're sitting back on Palmer and stopping him more than in the past. The offense looks lethargic compared to everyone's expections. And Palmer SWEARS it's not because he's still injured, for what that's worth. He sure isn't moving well, I know that.

[Dom Heffner]

Bengals offense scored only 13 points for the second straight game had a lot to do with it.

And they only allowed 7 up until the penalty. That's what you have to do in the NFL- you have to score more than the other team. There are no point limits or minimums. You just have to score more than the other team.

You're saying that scoring 13 points isn't enough to win, but scoring 14 -like the Bucs did- that's enough?

Look- the refs made a bad call and it directly contributed to the outcome of the game.

We can spin and twist and talk about what if's all day, but that call was atrocious.

What's funny to me is that if the Buccanneers would have gained those yards on their own it would have been the turning point of the drive.

The officials do it for them on a bogus call and everybody says we're making excuses.

[Javy Pornstache]

And they only allowed 7 up until the penalty. That's what you have to do in the NFL- you have to score more than the other team. There are no point limits or minimums. You just have to score more than the other team.

You're saying that scoring 13 points isn't enough to win, but scoring 14 -like the Bucs did- that's enough?

Look- the refs made a bad call and it directly contributed to the outcome of the game.

We can spin and twist and talk about what if's all day, but that call was atrocious.

What's funny to me is that if the Buccanneers would have gained those yards on their own it would have been the turning point of the drive.

The officials do it for them on a bogus call and everybody says we're making excuses.

Actually, that's not what I'm saying. Don't take the numbers literally. I didn't specifically mean 13 wasn't enough and that 14 was. I mean that this offense is built to score more than 13 a game, I think everyone knows that. The defense played magnificently, and well enough to win, sure. But how often do you expect them to do that? That's why I meant they had to win that game, as well as the defense played. I pointed out in that last post that they held them to seven up to that point, so I'm well aware of that.

Of course the penalty in question was terrible and odds are far greater we win without the call, but I don't think that is the be-all, end-all reason we lost. They should have put the game away far before that. The offense is a scary big problem, and it's one most thought we wouldn't have. It isn't just a bad week or two, from the looks of it.... maybe it is, I certainly hope so! But I am worried about what I've seen down-to-down from this team. Even in the wins, the offense isn't what we thought it would be, it looked more like they would string together an impressive couple drives in a row to score - think about how they scored against Kansas City, Cleveland and Pittsburgh. All in quick spurts while they sputtered for the rest of the game. It doesn't look anything like what we thought it would be, and what it was last year. How much of it has to do with injuries? I dunno, maybe we'll find out a little more when Chris Perry comes back.

[OldRightHander]

Ok, so they didn't play well. Heck, you could argue that they didn't play well enough to deserve to win, but that's not the point. They played well enough to win the game if it had been called correctly. They might have had a shutout if it had been called correctly, and if that had happened what would we be saying about a 13-0 win?