Ready for some Bengals football!! Bengals v. Bucs -- October 15, 2006

[Caveat Emperor]

Two quotes from the same post...

Should've been more specific -- We lost the games and yeah, the calls played a part in that, but they could've just as easily been wins if the team stepped up and overcame.

It's not like the officials walked the ball in for the Bucs -- Bengals had a shot to stop on 3rd down and 4th down, as well as immediately after the penalty.

It was a bad call -- they happen.

Only a momma trying to protect her sissy son would see either of those plays as "roughing."

I find the outrage among Bengals fans amusing, considering that the new "don't sneeze on the QB the wrong way or it'll cost you 15" is due, in at least some small part, to the fact that league wants to stop things from happening like what happened to Carson Palmer in the playoffs last year.

[WVRed]

I find the outrage among Bengals fans amusing, considering that the new "don't sneeze on the QB the wrong way or it'll cost you 15" is due, in at least some small part, to the fact that league wants to stop things from happening like what happened to Carson Palmer in the playoffs last year.

The problem is that its not being enforced on the Bengals. Palmer was sacked shortly after Smith sacked Gradkowski. Similar play, but where was the flag on the Bucs?

The Bengals deserved to lose this game, but you cannot deny that there wasnt some home cooking at Raymond James Stadium on Sunday.

This is somewhat unrelated, but after I saw that helmet pulling incident on Troy Polamalu, im convinced that either 1.Hair should be made safe for tackling, or 2.Hair should be cut off. I'm more in favor of no 2, but some of the new rules are kinda silly.

[WMR]

You're allowed to tackle by the hair.

The infraction was holding onto the hair and continuing to pull on it after Polamalu was brought down.

[WVRed]

You're allowed to tackle by the hair.

The infraction was holding onto the hair and continuing to pull on it after Polamalu was brought down.

Still, using Chris Henry from the Bengals as an example. All it takes is a cornerback pulling a player down by the hair, doing some damage to the neck, and they are done for the season, maybe even possibly their career. I'm not a doctor, but I am imagining this would be possible.

Its one of those things that should be enforced for the players safety.

[traderumor]

Should've been more specific -- We lost the games and yeah, the calls played a part in that, but they could've just as easily been wins if the team stepped up and overcame.

It's not like the officials walked the ball in for the Bucs -- Bengals had a shot to stop on 3rd down and 4th down, as well as immediately after the penalty.

It was a bad call -- they happen.



I find the outrage among Bengals fans amusing, considering that the new "don't sneeze on the QB the wrong way or it'll cost you 15" is due, in at least some small part, to the fact that league wants to stop things from happening like what happened to Carson Palmer in the playoffs last year.

Nope, that is an entirely different NEW rule that is about hitting below a certain part of the leg. Special rules designed to protect the QB, like allowing them to slide, and a lower force tolerance for hits on the QB have been around since the 80s and was primarily in response to seasons where expensive (and ratings producing QBs) were spending more time in street clothes than on the field creating excitement. Some extra protection is good given the compromising positions QBs often find themselves in with 300 lb gorillas who run 40 yd dashes in under 5 seconds coming at them. But to say that call had anything to do with Carson Palmer's injury is misunderstanding the history of rules to protect the QB.

[Yachtzee]

OK -- then how about a statement that Simeon Rice started the game with a size XL jersey, and finished the game with a size XXXL jersey without a yellow flag being seen once?

Teams get hosed by calls (and no calls) all the time. It was a crap call -- I'm a die-hard Bucs fan (who was at the game!! ) and I'll admit that. We've been the victim of some horrid calls too, and we lost games becuse of them this year. Fact is, though, you've got to man up and make play.

The officials don't control the outcome of the game, the teams do. Make a stop on 4th down or hold better on 3rd and long and this isn't even an issue today..

I think that in some cases, bad calls do affect the outcome of the game. If you make a perfectly clean sack on a QB and the ref flags you for 15 yards, I think it causes confusion as far as what you are or are not allowed to do. I think it has a big effect at that late stage in the game. It makes the defense a bit more tentative because they don't want to give up another big first down doing what they believe to be their jobs.

What Smith did was what he was supposed to do. It's not like he was Charles Martin taking down Jim McMahon.

[Caveat Emperor]

But to say that call had anything to do with Carson Palmer's injury is misunderstanding the history of rules to protect the QB.

While I appreciate the history lesson, I think you're being too easily dismissive of recent injuries to players like Palmer, McNabb, Pennington, etc.

They've gotten WAY more ticky-tack with the flags in the last couple years and its because of injuries to guys like Palmer and because of mortal fear the NFL has of somebody injuring one of the true "Golden Boys" like Manning, Brady or Vick on a hard hit. That it wasn't the specific "going low" on the QB rule that got cited here doesn't make Palmer any less relevant to this conversation.

It's annoying -- you can't hit the QB high, can't hit the QB low, can't drive the QB into the ground, etc. etc. Gruden summarized it perfectly: you know the league is telling officials to watch for this kinda stuff, just be smart with what you do and try not to put yourself in a position where the ref has to make a split-second judgement call. You're going to get hosed every so often, but that's no different than any other aspect of the game where judgement calls are prevalent, such as with a PI call/no-call or a holding call/no-call.

As for flags affecting the outcome -- the flag is a non-issue if the Bengals score more points earlier in the game and put the Bucs out. Instead, they kick field goals and never run away with the game. A team's loss always comes back to the plays it made or didn't make. Lack of plays on both sides of the ball (Bucs and Bengals) put the game in a position where a call could influence the outcome. As far as I'm concerned, neither side has a real right to cry about the call (however it would've gone) when they don't make enough plays to render the issue moot.

[goreds2]

Here are some WLW Podcasts concerning the Bengals game against Tampa.

Go towards the bottom on the right hand side of this LINK:

http://www.700wlw.com/cc-common/podcast.html

[traderumor]

While I appreciate the history lesson, I think you're being too easily dismissive of recent injuries to players like Palmer, McNabb, Pennington, etc.

They've gotten WAY more ticky-tack with the flags in the last couple years and its because of injuries to guys like Palmer and because of mortal fear the NFL has of somebody injuring one of the true "Golden Boys" like Manning, Brady or Vick on a hard hit. That it wasn't the specific "going low" on the QB rule that got cited here doesn't make Palmer any less relevant to this conversation.

It's annoying -- you can't hit the QB high, can't hit the QB low, can't drive the QB into the ground, etc. etc. Gruden summarized it perfectly: you know the league is telling officials to watch for this kinda stuff, just be smart with what you do and try not to put yourself in a position where the ref has to make a split-second judgement call. You're going to get hosed every so often, but that's no different than any other aspect of the game where judgement calls are prevalent, such as with a PI call/no-call or a holding call/no-call.

As for flags affecting the outcome -- the flag is a non-issue if the Bengals score more points earlier in the game and put the Bucs out. Instead, they kick field goals and never run away with the game. A team's loss always comes back to the plays it made or didn't make. Lack of plays on both sides of the ball (Bucs and Bengals) put the game in a position where a call could influence the outcome. As far as I'm concerned, neither side has a real right to cry about the call (however it would've gone) when they don't make enough plays to render the issue moot.

Only the names have changed in who "the golden boys" are, but roughing the QB has been ticky tack from the previously mentioned time period in the NFL for the same reason. Now, they have added a rule, but that did not come into play here. That is my point, we'll just have to disagree on that one. Blaming CP getting his knee blown up as a chain reaction to an overzealous ref is an intense oversimplification.

As for your final point, an infinite regress on "the call wouldn't have mattered if..." again, has no relevance. The game situation was what it was and bad calls that greatly affect the outcome of a game are not "moot" because you project that the game should not have been close enough for it to matter. That will always be faulty reasoning in such a situation.

[Hoosier Red]

Caveat's point is correct.
The BENGALS DIDN'T LOSE BECAUSE OF A TERRIBLE CALL.
While it is true the situation would have been much more dire for the Bucs with a 2nd and 18, that would not have guaranteed a Bengals victory.
If I recall Tampa made a first down after 2 and 13 later in the drive.

After the call there were many chances to stop Tampa Bay, they still did not. All it did was make the trip 15 yards shorter.

To look at how a team can respond to a ticky tack personal foul call, look to Indiana-Iowa.
On the Hawkeyes last drive, Will Myers was charged with a weak late hit call.
Two plays later he made an incredible interception to end the game.

Okay, I was just trying to spread the IU-Iowa game into another thread.

[max venable]

To look at how a team can respond to a ticky tack personal foul call, look to Indiana-Iowa.
On the Hawkeyes last drive, Will Myers was charged with a weak late hit call.
Two plays later he made an incredible interception to end the game.

Riiiight...to find out how a team should really play the great game of football...look no further than the Hoosiers...of Indiana.

[Hoosier Red]

Well, aside from last week I wouldn't recommend it.

[traderumor]

Caveat's point is correct.
The BENGALS DIDN'T LOSE BECAUSE OF A TERRIBLE CALL.
While it is true the situation would have been much more dire for the Bucs with a 2nd and 18, that would not have guaranteed a Bengals victory.
If I recall Tampa made a first down after 2 and 13 later in the drive.

After the call there were many chances to stop Tampa Bay, they still did not. All it did was make the trip 15 yards shorter.

To look at how a team can respond to a ticky tack personal foul call, look to Indiana-Iowa.
On the Hawkeyes last drive, Will Myers was charged with a weak late hit call.
Two plays later he made an incredible interception to end the game.

Okay, I was just trying to spread the IU-Iowa game into another thread.

Those other plays never would have happened. Regardless of what happened after the call, it was wrong and affected the outcome of the game. The only thing that should have happened was a review to see if the fumble counted or not. That argument is always there to attempt to minimize the impact that officials have on games, but as someone has already pointed out, if the NFL didn't believe that individual calls impacted the outcome of games, then why do they go through minutes of replay watching to make sure that key calls are given a thorough review and look for indisputable replay evidence to overturn an official's call? Still, the point remains that all the things the Bengals had to do afterwards resulted from an obviously horrendous call. Of course, I pointed all of that out in my first post on the topic.

[DoogMinAmo]

Caveat's point is correct.
The BENGALS DIDN'T LOSE BECAUSE OF A TERRIBLE CALL.
While it is true the situation would have been much more dire for the Bucs with a 2nd and 18, that would not have guaranteed a Bengals victory.
If I recall Tampa made a first down after 2 and 13 later in the drive.

After the call there were many chances to stop Tampa Bay, they still did not. All it did was make the trip 15 yards shorter.

To look at how a team can respond to a ticky tack personal foul call, look to Indiana-Iowa.
On the Hawkeyes last drive, Will Myers was charged with a weak late hit call.
Two plays later he made an incredible interception to end the game.

Okay, I was just trying to spread the IU-Iowa game into another thread.

Except for one problem, Geather recovered the fumble. Bengals ball if there is no flag. Even so, 2nd and 18 and a 15yard longer field might have been enough with time running out and no time outs, but we will never know.

[Dom Heffner]

[

Two plays later he made an incredible interception to end the game.

Yeah, that interception had nothing to do with a bad throw by the QB. It was that magical clutch instinct that we all have deep down inside of us if only we have the will to overcome bad calls by referees.

We can also add this statement to the thread, "Things That Drive You Crazy":

I hate sports cliches.