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Thread: Worst Team in WS History?

  1. #31
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    Re: Worst Team in WS History?

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    I think Scott Speizio's chin is on steroirds. Or crack. One of the two.

    My evidence is his manager has a history of managing juicers (not a coincidence), and Duncan's 200+ point boost in OPS raises a red flag for me.
    He's a young player. Young players 'turn it on' all the time. It isn't really that surprising. Nor is a half of a season a big sample size, which means that 'boosts' like this happen all the time. It remains very much to be seen if Duncan can produce like that over a full season. And I don't see what good it does to speculate about steroids. D.GOOCH

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  3. #32
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    Re: Worst Team in WS History?

    Quote Originally Posted by GOOCH View Post
    And I don't see what good it does to speculate about steroids. D.GOOCH
    I didn't realize we were here to "change the world."

    Speculation is fun, IMO.

    You don't have to like it, but some do.

  4. #33
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    Re: Worst Team in WS History?

    MWM, I'd argue this is a very good team. I think all the talk of 'worst WS team in history' is ridiculous. Just in recent memory (say the oughts), we have WS victors (Angels, Marlins) that didn't feature the kind of talent that is on this Cardinals team. Injuries are the key explanation as to why this Cardinals team dropped 20 extra games this season in comparison to the last two. But the fact is, the foundation of those two 100-win teams is still the foundation of this team. This is a good team. In my opinion, the team we're fielding right now matches up with the Tigers team everyone was ready to crown, Denny Green style. They have (had) the edge in pitching, we have an edge in hitting. But it is a close matchup...no matter what the so-called 'experts' say. D.GOOCH

  5. #34
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    Re: Worst Team in WS History?

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    I didn't realize we were here to "change the world."

    Speculation is fun, IMO.

    You don't have to like it, but some do.
    If I speculated that you were cheating on your wife, would you consider it fun? I'm no fan of witch hunts. D.GOOCH

  6. #35
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    Re: Worst Team in WS History?

    Quote Originally Posted by GOOCH View Post
    If I speculated that you were cheating on your wife, would you consider it fun? I'm no fan of witch hunts. D.GOOCH
    Go ahead. Then supply evidence.

    At least I can point to CLEAR physical signs of usage, plus point to his wildly incommensurate jump in numbers between the minors and MLB. I'm not saying go get the guy. It's just idle speculation based upon strong circumstantial evidence. I understand the limitations of that approach, but, seriously, what the hell difference does my speculation on a message board make?

    These guys are public figures. What I say about them doesn't matter a bit one way or another. You making up stuff about my fidelity could be considered, under certain rubrics, libelous, as I am not a public figure.

    Something tells me that if I were speculating about a Mariner or a Padre, you wouldn't be chastising me.

  7. #36
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    Re: Worst Team in WS History?

    As I said before, the best team doesn't always win the WS. The best team doesn't even always get there, but if my Cardinals win the WS, should I be embarressed or say they didn't deserve it? Hell no.

    The Cardinals have played some unbelievable ball this October. The team I'm watching now is not the team I saw play 161 (one rainout that wasn't made up) games this season. They've gotten hot at the right time and I'm hoping to see my first World Series Championshiph by my favorite team.

    How many of you would love to see the Reds in the position that the Cards are in?
    (Watching a couple kissing at Busch Stadium) “Well, he’s kissing her on the strikes and she’s kissing him on the balls.”---a classic "Shannonism" from Cardinals broadcaster Mike Shannon

  8. #37
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    Re: Worst Team in WS History?

    Quote Originally Posted by GOOCH View Post
    MWM, I'd argue this is a very good team. I think all the talk of 'worst WS team in history' is ridiculous. Just in recent memory (say the oughts), we have WS victors (Angels, Marlins) that didn't feature the kind of talent that is on this Cardinals team. Injuries are the key explanation as to why this Cardinals team dropped 20 extra games this season in comparison to the last two. But the fact is, the foundation of those two 100-win teams is still the foundation of this team. This is a good team. In my opinion, the team we're fielding right now matches up with the Tigers team everyone was ready to crown, Denny Green style. They have (had) the edge in pitching, we have an edge in hitting. But it is a close matchup...no matter what the so-called 'experts' say. D.GOOCH
    Sure it's a good team. I said as much. But I think the next 4 teams in the AL who didn't make the playoffs were better than any team made the playoffs in the NL.

    It's not a bad team. But someone has to be the weaker teams to go to the World Series. And I looked at every team that made the World Series the past 25 years team by team, and I can't think of one that I look at and say, "the 2006 Cards are definitely better than that team." And the 2003 Marlins were a very good team. They had the best record in baseball the second half of the season. That's the year Willis came up and lit the world on fire down the stretch. Beckett was healthy in the second half and playoffs and so was Pavano and Brad Penny. They had Pudge, Derek Lee, Luis Castillo, and a very good Mike Lowell that year. They weren't one of the best teams to be World Series, but they were a very good team in the second half and playoffs. Sorry, but Carpenter is the only starter on the staff who would have cracked that playoff rotation.

    And I'm not sure why you'd mention the Angels. You can't seriously think this year's Cards are anywhere near that team that won 99 games and had the best record in baseball a lot of the year and beat a Yankee team that won 103 games (as opposed to a putrid Padre team and banged up Met team). They had the 3rd best ERA in the game and the best in the AL. They were 4th in the majors in runs scored and had an almost unhittable bullpen. I think the 2002 Angels were one of the better teams we've seen in the past decade.

    Look, it's not Cards hate. Whatever team that came out of the NL this year was going to wear that title. It's one of those years. You shouldn't make apologies, the team earned there way to where they are. But part of the beauty of baseball discussion, especially from fans of other teams, is evaluating where certain teams in the Series rank among the other teams in the past that have made it there. And I honestly believe this year's Cards don't stack up to just about all of those teams over the past 25 years. The two you mentioned, the Marlins were a good deal better, but the Angels were superior in every way.

    Sure they have some good talent, but I'm looking top to bottom. If there were weaker teams over that stretch I'd like to see them. They were the best team in baseball two years ago. One of the top 3 last year, and the best team in the NL. But this year is different. In my lifetime I've never seen a league like the 2006 NL. It's an anomaly of biblical proportions. The Cards took advantage. Nothing wrong with it, but as baseball fans we're still going to try to objectively put the team in its rightful place when discussing the history of the World Series.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

  9. #38
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    Re: Worst Team in WS History?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swampturkey View Post
    How many of you would love to see the Reds in the position that the Cards are in?
    I sure as hell would love to see it. That has nothing to do with the conversation. Had the 2006 Reds made the World Seires ( and considering they only lost out of the playoffs by a couple of game, it's not that off-the-wall a concept), they would have been the worst team in the histroy of the series by a large margin.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

  10. #39
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    Re: Worst Team in WS History?

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    Go ahead. Then supply evidence.
    Speculation is evidence-less. That's why it is called speculation. And that's exactly what you're doing when you start spouting about steroids for every player that has some success.

    At least I can point to CLEAR physical signs of usage,
    There are no clear signs of usage, nor have you pointed to any such that could be authoritatively relied upon.

    plus point to his wildly incommensurate jump in numbers between the minors and MLB.
    When you can show me that the average baseball player enters the minor leagues, performs at a certain level, and maintains that level through out his career, I'll be ready to listen to what you suggest is an "incommesurate" jump. Alot of players get better. It's called *development*. And anyone who tells you that baseball players develop linearly and incrementally is selling you snake oil.

    I'm not saying go get the guy. It's just idle speculation based upon strong circumstantial evidence.
    LOL. Strong circumstantial evidence? He's hitting better for half a season. And he's big. That's your 'strong circumstantial evidence.' Wow.

    I understand the limitations of that approach, but, seriously, what the hell difference does my speculation on a message board make?
    This is such a nonsense response. Do you think where you engage in ridiculous, unjustified, baseless, and defamatory speculation matters?

    "Bob is sleeping with your wife."

    "Really? What proof do you have?"

    "Hey, I'm just speculating. And we're just shooting the breeze over the water cooler, so what does it matter."

    Give me a break. D.GOOCH

  11. #40
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    Re: Worst Team in WS History?

    Quote Originally Posted by GOOCH View Post
    Speculation is evidence-less. That's why it is called speculation. And that's exactly what you're doing when you start spouting about steroids for every player that has some success.



    There are no clear signs of usage, nor have you pointed to any such that could be authoritatively relied upon.



    When you can show me that the average baseball player enters the minor leagues, performs at a certain level, and maintains that level through out his career, I'll be ready to listen to what you suggest is an "incommesurate" jump. Alot of players get better. It's called *development*. And anyone who tells you that baseball players develop linearly and incrementally is selling you snake oil.



    LOL. Strong circumstantial evidence? He's hitting better for half a season. And he's big. That's your 'strong circumstantial evidence.' Wow.



    This is such a nonsense response. Do you think where you engage in ridiculous, unjustified, baseless, and defamatory speculation matters?

    "Bob is sleeping with your wife."

    "Really? What proof do you have?"

    "Hey, I'm just speculating. And we're just shooting the breeze over the water cooler, so what does it matter."

    Give me a break. D.GOOCH
    He's a public figure. I can speculate all I want about him or any other public figure I wish.

    No. Speculation is based on a continuum of evidence. Not all speculation is totally baseless. Sometimes it's well-informed speculation; sometimes it's wild. To say that Chris Duncan, who has many of the external features of a steroid user (my brother's a physician who treats people with Crohn's disease--he can pick out a steroid user in a crowd of 50 jocks)--and there are VERY telltale signs of roid usage, very, very telltale--is an understatement. Is it verifiable? No, of course not. But I really think you need to rethink your definition of defamation.

    To step away from your precious Cardinals for a bit: I believe Vinny Castilla was a roid user. I believed Canseco was for years. I believed Giambi was. And guess what? They all exhibited the same external signifiers of steroid usage: moonface, log arms, pimpling, slight skin discoloration. Add those factors to the admission on the part of many athletes to the usage of performance-enhancing chemicals, and the speculation ain't so wild. And like I said, Pujols exhibits NONE of those steroidal traits, so the speculation about him is TOTALLY unfounded, IMO.

  12. #41
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    Re: Worst Team in WS History?

    You cannot identify a steroid user from a non-steroid user by looking at them. That is simply a myth. You have no basis for your speculation that Chris Duncan takes steroids. And you can go off on a tangent about how you have a 'right' to speculate about him all you want, but no one is questioning your right to say anything. You can say it all you like. That you have the right to do so doesn't make it any less baseless, any less irresponsible, or any less reprehensible. D.GOOCH

  13. #42
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    Re: Worst Team in WS History?

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    He's a public figure. I can speculate all I want about him or any other public figure I wish.

    No. Speculation is based on a continuum of evidence. Not all speculation is totally baseless. Sometimes it's well-informed speculation; sometimes it's wild. To say that Chris Duncan, who has many of the external features of a steroid user (my brother's a physician who treats people with Crohn's disease--he can pick out a steroid user in a crowd of 50 jocks)--and there are VERY telltale signs of roid usage, very, very telltale--is an understatement. Is it verifiable? No, of course not. But I really think you need to rethink your definition of defamation.

    To step away from your precious Cardinals for a bit: I believe Vinny Castilla was a roid user. I believed Canseco was for years. I believed Giambi was. And guess what? They all exhibited the same external signifiers of steroid usage: moonface, log arms, pimpling, slight skin discoloration. Add those factors to the admission on the part of many athletes to the usage of performance-enhancing chemicals, and the speculation ain't so wild. And like I said, Pujols exhibits NONE of those steroidal traits, so the speculation about him is TOTALLY unfounded, IMO.
    In your opinion. Of course he might be clean, but with the issues with his trainer, his obvious acne, and his baldness I question him like I do every other Dominican player.

    He has acne on his cheeks, either that or some serious scars.

    His stats are also grounds for questioning during this era. It's today's game. He's putting up Jimmie Foxx numbers and with that is going to come skepticism in today's game. Not too mention he's doing things that just don't look natural. He's hitting totally underneath balls and somehow they are going 420 feet the other way. Some of my opinions on Pujols are just strictly based on that. He is either the strongest player in the history of the game or getting help with his bat speed and overall power. I've never seen another player like Bonds or Pujols in the time they can wait for pitches. They have all day to decide to swing or not.
    Last edited by Cedric; 10-24-2006 at 01:03 AM.
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  14. #43
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    Re: Worst Team in WS History?

    Quote Originally Posted by GOOCH View Post
    You cannot identify a steroid user from a non-steroid user by looking at them. That is simply a myth. You have no basis for your speculation that Chris Duncan takes steroids. And you can go off on a tangent about how you have a 'right' to speculate about him all you want, but no one is questioning your right to say anything. You can say it all you like. That you have the right to do so doesn't make it any less baseless, any less irresponsible, or any less reprehensible. D.GOOCH
    I agree, and I'm downright embarassed over anyone on this forum who, because they are upset that the Cards aren't "deserving" to be in the WS, now have to resort to childish and petty jealousy over steroid accusations and assumptions.

    If you look at the Cards "on paper", sure, anyone would wonder how in the world did they get in? But games/series are won on the playing field.

    And you brought up some good points earlier Gooch. The Cards struggled with some injuries to very key players throughout the season.

    But regardless, this team put it together and did what they had to do to get where they are. They beat at SD team 3 games to 1 when many predicted that SD, who was playing good ball, would advance. They then beat the best team in the NL (Mets) in 7 games to make it to the WS.

    And as far as I'm concerned, regardless of their regular season record, they EARNED the right to be where they are right now.

    As for Pujols using HGH. Simple poo-poo until it is proven.

    I've read the Grimsley affidavit. Alot of assumptions made. Grimsley stated he "suspects" several ballplayers are using steroids and other substances. Wow! What a revelation! Thanks Jason!

    I know that he and Albert used the same trainer (Chris Mihlfeld). But he is not named as a supplier, but as the "referrer". And just because he helped Grimsley does not mean that every ballplayer he trained is/was on steroids. Where is that shown?

    I just simply want to see the evidence. People have a right to their assumptions, but I still want to see the evidence. I just think there would be a "trail" that some investigative reporter would have found and broke the story by now.

    And I really don't see the physical signs and/or indicators of steroid use in Pujols. I read an article this morning where it stated that since he was 19 he has put on 20 pounds and added some muscle. What 19 yr old kid wouldn't, through the maturing process add on weight, and then, through training and hard work, turn some of that into muscle? And everyone who has known Pujols says he has always had a fire and very intense work ethic. They say the guy is watching TV constantly - game films and hitting. His work ethic reminds me alot of Tony Gwynn. It's intense and above average in comparison to alot of ML players.

    And Pujols has said.... "They can test me every day if they want. ... You're not going to find anything out about me," he says. "I work hard for it. I don't need any types of things like that to help me out in my game. I just take the blessing the good Lord has given me to perform."

    Until it is shown otherwise, I believe that.

    And another reason why I respect and like Pujols (which doesn't get much attention) is the Pujols Family Foundation he and his wife founded. Anyone ever see the interview a couple years back on how he met his wife, who had a child with Downs Syndrome? Quite touching and says alot about this young man as far as ethics and character as far as I'm concerned.

    http://www.pujolsfamilyfoundation.org/index2.html

    I wish he was our 1Bman.
    Last edited by GAC; 10-24-2006 at 07:21 AM.
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  15. #44
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    Re: Worst Team in WS History?

    His stats are also grounds for questioning during this era. It's today's game. He's putting up Jimmie Foxx numbers
    1928 - 1938 MLB - .280/.343/.401/.744 - Foxx - .335/.439/.639/1.077

    2001-2005 - MLB - .264/.332/.422/.755 Albert - .332/.416/.621/1.037

    So matching Foxx's numbers makes him suspicious, I guess then Mantle would have been drawn and quartered too.

    Mantle 52-58

    .319/.437/.589/1.026 - MLB in the same time .259/.330/.391/.720

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    Re: Worst Team in WS History?

    Quote Originally Posted by GOOCH View Post
    You cannot identify a steroid user from a non-steroid user by looking at them. That is simply a myth.

    Yep. I'll take the Gooch's (all caps) opinion over the opinion of my brother, a doctor who's had three article credits in the JAMA.

    There are irrefutable external signs of a roid abuser.


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