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Thread: The Power Of Tradition

  1. #1
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    The Power Of Tradition

    The Power Of Tradition.

    A catchy slogan that brings back all of the best memories of yester-year.

    Because I'm a Die Hard Reds Fan I love the idea of remembering the Glory Days.

    Because I'm a Die Hard Reds Fan I'd much rather see this Franchise focus on future success instead of dwelling in the past.

    I'll always have my memories.

    MLB of 2006 is almost a different game than it was in 1976.

    I want my children and my grandchildren to be able to feel that joy and have those memories they can call thier own.

    Am I right or wrong for feeling this way? Or am I just feeling this way cause I have a belly full of beer?

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    Baseball card addict MrCinatit's Avatar
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    Re: The Power Of Tradition

    While I do love the days of baseball past, and while I do love remembering the glory days of Reds past, you are correct.
    There is nothing like the glory days of today.

  4. #3
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: The Power Of Tradition

    The power of tradition helps make baseball what it is. One does not have to be exclusive of the other and there surely is nothing wrong with combining the two.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden

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    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: The Power Of Tradition

    It's a marketing campaign. Nothing more, nothing less.

    When they start bringing Foster, Bench and Morgan back to play, then you can worry.
    Last edited by Ltlabner; 10-25-2006 at 06:56 AM.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  6. #5
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: The Power Of Tradition

    You're definitely not wrong in feeling that way Ron. Being born and raised here in central Ohio, it was more my love of the game of baseball (and my Dad) that drew me to the Reds. The Reds had alot of solid players back then... guys like Harper, Pinson, Robinson, Maloney, O'Toole, Jay, Cardenas. And "youngsters" like Rose, Perez, and Helms. But very average-to-mediocre teams growing up as a kid. It wasn't until I was in high school, and beginning in 1970, that many my age were able to witness greatness in this organization and the advent of the BRM.

    And other then that era of the BRM, the Reds don't really have much of a tradition when it comes to winning. At least not in the majority of my lifetime. I count myself blessed and very fortunate to have been able to have experienced and been a part of the BRM mystique.

    But seeing how baseball has "evolved" over these last 30 years, and with the growing power of the player's union breaking the hold owners had over players (ownership), free agency, and other economic factors, I doubt we will ever see another team in Cincy like the BRM. It's just too hard anymore, for most teams, to build that "dynasty" and hold it together because of the issue of money (player contracts).

    And IMO, today's fans are left in the "wake" of all of that.

    It is definitely not wrong with today's Reds fan to want a competitive/winning franchise. And I am sure that history will not be kind to the ownership of Carl Lindner & the Limiteds. And it shouldn't be.

    You're right when you say we can't "dwell in the past". And that does not only include the past 6 years, but also 30 years ago.

    When people look at today's team, and then dream of the glory days of the BRM, and want today's ownership to somehow recreate and bring those "days" back, they are setting themselves up for disappointment IMO.

    It's like some still waiting for that Beatle's reunion because it was such a magical time.

    We definitely need to forget the past 6 years, the ineptness of the former ownership group, and move on. I played sports most of my life. And one of the things we were taught by coaches was that if you carry a losing attitude/mentality, even when you have talented players, and you carry that like a "burden on your shoulder", it will drag you down, cause you to become despondent, and you will see yourselves as losers with no hope.

    The former ownership did a very good job of fostering that attitude among the fans, and it has to be broken.

    That is why I have renewed hope in Castellini and Krivsky. They have one heck of a task on their hands to tear down that attitude and reverse the trend. And it is not going to be an easy task BECAUSE that former ownership seated such an ingrained mistrust within those fans who have to be won back.

    In their first year at the helm they took steps forward and did alot to BEGIN that movement in the right direction. But simply turning us around is not enough. They still have to win the fan's trust back by showing progress on that road.

    It's not enough to stop in your tracks and realize that you're heading down the wrong road. It's a start; but you then have to make the wise decision(s) that set you on the course of that right path.

    And one of the huge hurdles this current management is saddled with is the existence of bad contracts. The old ownership is gone. But their contracts remain. And they are basically contracts that we can't really do anything with other then wait for them to expire and get out from underneath them.

    Improvements are going to be made incrementally IMO. If some are thinking they are going to go out in this off-season and make huge moves to correct everything that is wrong with this team, then again, they are going to be in for a letdown. They need to get a "piece" here and there, and not do anything stupid. All things being equal, and IF they have the right plan/philosophy, I still say this team is 2-3 years away from seeing more long lasting results.
    Last edited by GAC; 10-25-2006 at 07:21 AM.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  7. #6
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: The Power Of Tradition

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Madden View Post
    The Power Of Tradition.

    A catchy slogan that brings back all of the best memories of yester-year.

    Because I'm a Die Hard Reds Fan I love the idea of remembering the Glory Days.

    Because I'm a Die Hard Reds Fan I'd much rather see this Franchise focus on future success instead of dwelling in the past.

    I'll always have my memories.

    MLB of 2006 is almost a different game than it was in 1976.

    I want my children and my grandchildren to be able to feel that joy and have those memories they can call thier own.

    Am I right or wrong for feeling this way? Or am I just feeling this way cause I have a belly full of beer?
    Yikes! A belly full at 6:00 a.m.???

    I agree we need to take the game where it is today. Each generation had their qualms about the state of the game current to them as opposed to "back in the day". That's not to say there aren't things to be learned from the past, but today's game is what it is. Let's figure out how to win!

  8. #7
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: The Power Of Tradition

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    In their first year at the helm they took steps forward and did alot to BEGIN that movement in the right direction. But simply turning us around is not enough. They still have to win the fan's trust back by showing progress on that road.

    It's not enough to stop in your tracks and realize that you're heading down the wrong road. It's a start; but you then have to make the wise decision(s) that set you on the course of that right path.

    And one of the huge hurdles this current management is saddled with is the existence of bad contracts. The old ownership is gone. But their contracts remain. And they are basically contracts that we can't really do anything with other then wait for them to expire and get out from underneath them.

    Improvements are going to be made incrementally IMO. If some are thinking they are going to go out in this off-season and make huge moves to correct everything that is wrong with this team, then again, they are going to be in for a letdown. They need to get a "piece" here and there, and not do anything stupid. All things being equal, and IF they have the right plan/philosophy, I still say this team is 2-3 years away from seeing more long lasting results.
    So many of us have said repeatedly that there can be no quick fix - it has to be a systemic change. The change must be from the top to the bottom and back up again. We need a new culture in the minors in our player develop-ment. We need solid drafts and we need to be teaching young players how to play the game.

    We certainly need to get out from under the bad (or even just old) contracts and that is at least 2-3 years away as we shed those contracts one way or another.

    Time is what it will take.

  9. #8
    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: The Power Of Tradition

    I had a friend was a big baseball player
    back in high school
    He could throw that speedball by you
    Make you look like a fool boy
    Saw him the other night at this roadside bar
    I was walking in, he was walking out
    We went back inside sat down had a few drinks
    but all he kept talking about was

    Glory days well they'll pass you by
    Glory days in the wink of a young girl's eye
    Glory days, glory days

    Well there's a girl that lives up the block
    back in school she could turn all the boy's heads
    Sometimes on a Friday I'll stop by
    and have a few drinks after she put her kids to bed
    Her and her husband Bobby well they split up
    I guess it's two years gone by now
    We just sit around talking about the old times,
    she says when she feels like crying
    she starts laughing thinking about

    Glory days well they'll pass you by
    Glory days in the wink of a young girl's eye
    Glory days, glory days

    Now I think I'm going down to the well tonight
    and I'm going to drink till I get my fill
    And I hope when I get old I don't sit around thinking about it
    but I probably will
    Yeah, just sitting back trying to recapture
    a little of the glory of, well time slips away
    and leaves you with nothing mister but
    boring stories of glory days

    Glory days well they'll pass you by
    Glory days in the wink of a young girl's eye
    Glory days, glory days

    Pay attention to the open sky

  10. #9
    You know his story Redsland's Avatar
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    Re: The Power Of Tradition

    The Power of Tradition.

    The power of tradition?

    Does tradition have power?

    I suppose it can, but only among people who revere the tradition in question. So, what is the Reds’ tradition, and who reveres it? And, by extension, who are the Reds marketing themselves toward?

    By most appearances, the Reds are alluding to their golden age—the era of The Big Red Machine.

    Folks, The Big Red Machine started rolling more than 35 years ago. It peaked 30 years ago. The teenagers and 20- and 30-something year-old fans who cheered for those teams are in their 50s and 60s today. Come to think of it, they are people who bear more than a passing resemblance to Bob Castellini. Local empty-nesters within sniffing distance of retirement age.

    Marty Brennaman qualifies. He arrived smack dab in the middle of our heyday and waved from parade floats while confetti ensnared itself in his poofy hair. Today he has a 40-year old son, and is about to serve out his final contract before riding off into the sunset. He calls himself a baseball fan, but looks a whole lot like a bitter curmudgeon.

    And he’s, apparently, the Reds’ target demographic.

    Now, I don’t know about you, but I rarely hear advertisers discussing ways to woo “coveted 60-year-olds.” Eighteen- to 30-year-olds? Sure. They have time and money to spend on the things marketers are peddling. So why are the Reds aiming 30 years downstream?

    Why are the Reds talking to people who cast wary eyes at their 401(k) balances, and who have no kids in the house to watch games with, or to take outside and throw a ball around with? Why are they talking to people who, if a ball should land in their yards, neighborhood children know better than to retrieve it?

    Baseball in general and the Reds in particular seem obsessed with the past, and I’m convinced it hurts them in the present. Every time I hear some talking head or other go all Bob Costas over a sepia-toned image of Babe Ruth or Jackie Robinson, I hear today’s critically important young fan tuning out. What Little Leaguer or high schooler wants to hear stories about olden days? Tell me again about the Depression, gramps. For that matter, when was the last time a Super Bowl broadcast opened with black-and-white images of mud-caked heroes your dad recognized by sight, but you’d never seen play?

    The power of tradition?

    If I want to rebuild the fanbase for the Cincinnati Reds, I want it to start at the family level. A 30-something year-old dad and his school-aged son, throwing the ball into creeks and bushes and going to their first games together. That kid will grow up to be a fan and play on teams with kids his age and pass his love of the game along to his own son, and three generations will sneak out of work and go to Business Day Specials together.

    What tradition do the Reds have for the people I’m describing? Well, I’m 30-something. I missed the Big Red Machine, but I got to see the early '80s. A players’ strike. The most recent 15 years of The Pete Rose Story. A lockout. An embarrassment of an owner. Then another. A sterile stadium. “Competitive” payrolls. Lowest-bidder managers. And two trips to the postseason. Two.

    For the school-aged kids we really need to be reaching out to, the “tradition” is even bleaker. If I were the 15-year-old star of my high school team, I would never have drawn a breath at a time when the Reds were world champs. I would have been in kindergarten the last time they went to the playoffs (in a half-empty stadium). The Reds have been a losing team since before I was in Little League.

    How powerful is that kind of tradition?

    If I’m a teenager, I don’t care about my Dad’s heroes—the people the Reds keep propping in front of me. I want my own tradition, built with my own heroes, like Arroyo and Dunn. And if Dad likes seeing Soto and Foster with the club, that’s fine, but it’s not so different than having Dave Collins or Dennis Menke or Ron Oester or Ted Kluzewski on-staff and flashing signs.

    The power of tradition?

    I don’t know how powerful it is, at least not to the young fans who the Reds need to be attracting. Me? I like the idea of Cincinnati being the home of professional baseball, and I like knowing that some of the greatest teams in history wore our uniform. But those nods to the past aren’t enough to separate me and my family of four from $170 for three hours of entertainment. If I cared that much about the past, I’d gladly go to the Hall of Fame instead and save money in the process.

    Celebrate the past? Sure. But build upon it. Give fans of today—and of all ages—something in this team to call their own. Or continue to preach to a choir of 60-year-olds.
    Makes all the routine posts.

  11. #10
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: The Power Of Tradition

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsland View Post
    Folks, The Big Red Machine started rolling more than 35 years ago. It peaked 30 years ago. The teenagers and 20- and 30-something year-old fans who cheered for those teams are in their 50s and 60s today. Come to think of it, they are people who bear more than a passing resemblance to Bob Castellini. Local empty-nesters within sniffing distance of retirement age.
    Hey! Lets don't take this too damn far OK! It hurts enough as it is.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  12. #11
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: The Power Of Tradition

    Yikes! Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Redsland's diatribe against anyone older than himself (or her) rings a bit hollow. Why must the world be "either or", "black & white" - I'm just an old aging hippie who likes to think in a "both/and" way.

    Born in 1954, I didn't remember first hand the 1961 pennant winning team, but I came into conscience knowledge of most of its players in the subsequent years. I had no idea of the dismal years between the previous World Series champs (1940) up to then and I'm sure I experienced the heartbreak as that 60's teams almost made it a couple of times (hell, I remember my grandma crying when Frankie Robinson was traded!).

    That said, I fit your demographic of being in my mid to late teens, early 20's when the BRM took its place in history. It was great, but that was then. Times have changed, but it can't hurt to celebrate that tradition, not to mention the great players who have played for the Reds over the last 137 years.

    And how come you're so narrow in what the present should be that you only include fathers and sons in that dream? What am I supposed to tell my wife (who grew up on baseball herself - Cardinals fan) and my two daughters who I dutifully took to ballgames because that was our family's tradition. They'd take umbrage at such narrowness. And what about my sister who believes that throwing like a girl means you throw the right way and you throw it hard? Please, this is the 21st century.

    Emphasizing a team's heritage is part of moving fans in the total continuum of its history. Certainly market to the new generation! How do you think we got to be fans. But don't throw away the history while you're at it. That's just short sighted, to say the least.

  13. #12
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: The Power Of Tradition

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsland View Post
    I don’t know how powerful it is, at least not to the young fans who the Reds need to be attracting. Me? I like the idea of Cincinnati being the home of professional baseball, and I like knowing that some of the greatest teams in history wore our uniform. But those nods to the past aren’t enough to separate me and my family of four from $170 for three hours of entertainment. If I cared that much about the past, I’d gladly go to the Hall of Fame instead and save money in the process.

    Celebrate the past? Sure. But build upon it. Give fans of today—and of all ages—something in this team to call their own. Or continue to preach to a choir of 60-year-olds.
    You raise some interesting points. Here are just some random unconnected thoughts in responce.

    Why market to 60 somethings instead of teenagers and 20 somethings? Money. 60' somethings generally have it (and more of it). Teenagers and 20 somethings generally don't. But smart orinizations market to the older fans AND the younger fans. It's not an either or situation.

    I guess I don't see anything wrong with trying to attract the older demo since they have the bucks to spend (unless you just don't like anyone older than yourself)....AS LONG AS they are also marketing to other groups to build a sustaining market base. You can do both at the same time...it's pretty simple actually.

    Harkinging back to the glorydays of the BRM (ie. Power of tradion) doesn't imply that anyone under 35 is excluded. See $5 bleacher seats. See discount dog nights. See the family discount package (4 tickets, 4 drinks, etc...I forget the name). You can market to many groups while still using the "past" as a starting point.

    The "family of four can't afford a game" argument is baloney IMO. If you want to sit in the best seats, eat a full meal, get lots of snacks and souvineers and park in the garage, yes, it will be expensive. If you use some common sense and choose wisely the price you pay for 3 hours of entertainment is a fantastic value.

    At the end of the day, building a solid baseball team is what will maximize revenues. Period. Quibble over marketing slogans all you want but if BC wants to maximize revenue he needs to put a winning ball team on the field.
    Last edited by Ltlabner; 10-25-2006 at 01:41 PM.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  14. #13
    You know his story Redsland's Avatar
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    Re: The Power Of Tradition

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz View Post
    Yikes! Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Redsland's diatribe against anyone older than himself (or her) rings a bit hollow.... And how come you're so narrow in what the present should be that you only include fathers and sons in that dream?... They'd take umbrage at such narrowness.... That's just short sighted, to say the least.
    Yes; how hollow, narrow-minded, and short-sighted of me to point out that the Reds' marketing strategy is irrelevent to the young fans the team should be nurturing.
    Makes all the routine posts.

  15. #14
    Mon chou Choo vaticanplum's Avatar
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    Re: The Power Of Tradition

    Break for personal anecdote (which you should feel free to skip):

    A couple of weeks ago, I spent the weekend with three of my younger cousins, ages 14, 12 and 9. None of these kids have ever had too much of an interest in baseball despite having a Reds-nut dad (they love football and basketball), but we were watching the playoffs on and off all weekend. And my 12-year-old cousin got pretty into it. (When their parents called to check in during the final ALCS game, she told her dad excitedly, "And Dad guess what we're watching baseball and it's actually interesting. Kinda." She talks ten miles a minute, BTW.) I realized something that I had never really thought about before, though, and I wonder if any of you will agree with me. I'm not sure that anyone ever really just falls in love with a sport. I think there almost HAS to be a gateway team. That people fall in love with a team -- which may not even in all cases be the team they love forever (although usually it is) -- but that they fall in love with the team first, and then fall in love with the nuances of the sport itself. Or you fall for a "moment" that you happen to see, but that usually means you fall in love with that team anyway. Which is one reason these kids have never really been baseball fans. In theory they support the Reds, and they love Ken Griffey Jr., and the youngest likes the Yankees because I bought him a hat one year, but the Reds have sucked basically their whole lives and they've never been to Yankee Stadium so they've never really fallen in love with the team or the sport. Not that you have to fall in love with a WINNING team, but you do have to fall in love with a team. And a winning team helps.

    So once she started noticing a team, due to uniforms and such, she started to want to hear more about the game. Crap, it is tough explaining baseball. You think it's so simple, but it's not. If you sit down at the dinner table to go through the basic rules, that's probably simple. But if you sit down to watch a game and explain the rules as it goes along, it's a mess. Because then you have to go through a million details that you wouldn't in a basic explanation. Why that catcher needed to block the ball with his chest. Why the batter is fouling off as many pitches as he wants when the first two were bad. Why that guy gets to score from a fly ball, but this guy doesn't. Why the team wearing white can have a walk-off home run but the team in gray can't. Why the guy holding the ball is the defense (the 9-year-old: "Well, that doesn't make any sense. They should change that." And then you have to explain that that is precisely what makes it the game it is, that you couldn't change it; I mean, how do you explain the fundamental invention of the game?) It gives me even more of an appreciation of what a perfect game it is to explain it, but it must come across as massively confusing, because to explain one thing you have to go back and explain ten other things first. I guess it just takes a long time to learn all the nuances of the game. Of course it does -- I'm still learning.

    Anyway. My cousin's new favorite team ("besides the Reds")? The Oakland A's. She went bananas for them and was quite bummed when the Tigers won. She's all about them now; she want to buy the team someday. Kid was a baseball fan for two days and she already voluntarily picked a losing team to love. Her favorite player? Huston Street. I predict a long, hard life for my darling cousin, both romantically and baseball-y.

    My point is this: no marketing is as effective as building a good team. Pour the better part of your money into the latter rather than the former, and the former will happen by itself.

    If the Reds build a winning team, the kids will get interested. The kids get interested, their parents put it in the budget to take them to a game, and the less we hear about ticket prices. The kids get interested, they start to want to hear about the team's tradition, the great players, how it came to be and what things were like when they were good, and they start to want very much for the team to be good again. This interest was born literally in a matter of hours for my cousin, because she was watching a good team in contention for an exciting championship. It really is not hard to do.

    My opinion on this marketing campaign? Stupid and backward. I have as much respect for the tradition of the Reds as anybody, but the only reason I was ever interested in it at all is because I was already a fan. I will always go to games and I will always support the team. Are they trying to get older folks and lapsed fans to remember what the Reds once were, become nostalgiac and go to the ballpark? They'll be mightily disappointed when they see the sorry team that's there in comparison to the team they remember. Are they trying to get in new, young fans? They have to do that by building a good team, and then tradition will mean something to the young fans. That's youth, folks. I don't care how old you are; all of you remember rolling your eyes at your parents' stories of their beautiful, innocent youths at some point ("Things were different when I was a kid...none of this [insert "recent" social evil here]".) Then when something happened that you could relate to, you had respect for this tradition. If the "power of tradition" the Reds are pushing refers to a dang good team, then the slogan means jack squat in relation to the current team they're trying to get people to see. Unless, of course, they build a good one.
    Last edited by vaticanplum; 10-25-2006 at 02:04 PM.
    There is no such thing as a pitching prospect.

  16. #15
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: The Power Of Tradition

    Quote Originally Posted by vaticanplum View Post
    My opinion on this marketing campaign? Stupid and backward.
    I think people, and perhaps yourself VP, are making the mistake of thinking a marketing slogan means that the only people the Reds are going after old people.

    I doubt all the local bands that play concerts after Friday and Saturday home games are aimed at older people. I doubt the MDX crew is aimed at old people. I doubt that Gapper, Mr Red, Rosie Red and whatever weird mascots they dream up are aimed at old people. I don't think the bobble head promotions of current players are aimed at old people since they are more likely to view a current player as "one of them spoiled, overpayed jerks".

    As mentioned in my earlier post, all of the family discount packs, bleacher seats and dollar dog nights are not aimed at old people. Neither is having current players at Reds fests. Having the local school children on the field for the player line ups isn't aimed at old people. Neither is having the guest PA announcer.

    You can successfully market to different groups at the same time. You want the older folks with the disposable income. They are more likely to spend more at the ball park, buy premium seats and season tickets, etc. You want the younger folks because while they woln't spend as much now, they will spend a bunch over the course of their lives.

    You need both demographics.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate


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