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Thread: Reds ink Bubba Crosby to a 1 year deal

  1. #166
    Passion for the game Team Clark's Avatar
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    Re: Reds ink Bubba Crosby to a 1 year deal

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    What was Bergolla's rep TC? What about Olmedo? I understood that these guys were both primarily glove guys. One would think they could get that type of defensive backing for 325k or whatever the minimum is with a AAA guy.
    I have very little on Bergolla. Same with Olmedo. I can get Olmedo's info it just takes awhile to sort.
    It's absolutely pathetic that people can't have an opinion from actually watching games and supplementing that with stats. If you voice an opinion that doesn't fit into a black/white box you will get completely misrepresented and basically called a tobacco chewing traditionalist...
    Cedric 3/24/08


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  3. #167
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
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    Re: Reds ink Bubba Crosby to a 1 year deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Clark View Post
    Nice try.

    Most of the info I have is available on the web. You just have to look for it. What did I post that you probably could not look up? Very little excpet my quick calls to Bobby or Jim. Each of which were asked if I could post any comments they made. Since you do not know Jim Fregosi very well, you made an idiotic statement on his behalf. Nothing new.

    I'm not sure how you took my comments as defensive but then again you usually overreact to anything that is posted in reference to your posts.

    I'm done? Like your opinion matters to me? As if you were an authority figure.... Sorry Dad. I will ask before I take the car out again. Ohh and nice spin on your own words. Everyone except you can see through that.

    I enjoy you Steel. I do. You're not as bad as people say IMO. You're pretty smart, you make good arguments and you can be persuasive. You've changed my mind on a couple of posts. I just can not figure out why you attack people so ferociously and then get all upset when they say something back. Especially when you start it. It's just a shame. You always step in a ruin the post for everyone. Sad.
    See, another bad choice by you to attack. Prior to that, I'd been willing to allow you to sit on the fringe of ridiculous. But now, no way. It's time for folks to know what I know.

    You never played high school baseball. At least not to Ron Roth's recollection. Your previous claim of playing professional baseball has been completely debunked by Moehller High School's list of professional players. Shelbourne University is a scam school. Anyone with five hundred bucks can get a degree from there. Thank God Moeller removed their "degree" listing from their website.

    Rob Butcher revoked your press pass because you kept insisting that Reds' players should give you autographs. As if that wasn't dumb enough, Tom Browning fired you when you were with the Florence Freedom because you couldn't stop going out with players to drink after hours. There's no record of you ever either playing or working for the MLB teams you claim. None.

    And you can freakin' bet that I've got inquiries to Devil Rays beat writers as to whether or not you're a scout for that organization. Not that I'll be surprised by the results considering that only an imbecile would actually share privileged internal scouting information on a public message board.

    And all the while you claimed to be roaming the country scouting players, your posts originated from the same Cincinnati IP address. Either you're a brilliant re-router (unlikely) or you're just not smart.

    I know who you are and I know what you are and I'll be damned if I'm going to let you take this charade any further.
    Last edited by SteelSD; 11-13-2006 at 02:26 AM.
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  4. #168
    Member forfreelin04's Avatar
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    Re: Reds ink Bubba Crosby to a 1 year deal

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    See, another bad choice by you to attack. Prior to that, I'd been willing to allow you to sit on the fringe of ridiculous. But now, no way. It's time for folks to know what I know.

    You never played high school baseball. At least not to Ron Roth's recollection. Your previous claim of playing professional baseball has been completely debunked by Moehller High School's list of professional players. Shelbourne University is a scam school. Anyone with five hundred bucks can get a degree from there. Thank God Moeller removed their "degree" listing from their website.

    Rob Butcher revoked your press pass because you kept insisting that Reds' players should give you autographs. As if that wasn't dumb enough, Tom Browning fired you when you were with the Florence Freedom because you couldn't stop going out with players to drink after hours. There's no record of you ever either playing or working for the MLB teams you claim. None.

    And you can freakin' bet that I've got inquiries to Devil Rays beat writers as to whether or not you're a scout for that organization. Not that I'll be surprised by the results considering that only an imbecile would actually share privileged internal scouting information on a public message board.

    And all the while you claimed to be roaming the country scouting players, your posts originated from the same Cincinnati IP address. Either you're a brilliant re-router (unlikely) or you're just not smart.

    I know who you are and I know what you are and I'll be damned if I'm going to let you take this charade any further.

    Is there any rules against stalking other posters?

  5. #169
    Member RollyInRaleigh's Avatar
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    Re: Reds ink Bubba Crosby to a 1 year deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Clark View Post
    I did some digging. I pulled up all of the defensive data on the Reds and Juan Castro that our scouting system holds. All of this data is input by scouts who have been in attendance at a particular game. So, no one is watching and evaluating the Reds on Fox from their home in CA for example. All of this data is put in throughout a season. We saw the Reds play either directly (for purposes of evaluating Reds' talent for a trade) or indirectly (evaluating who the Reds were playing) on 68 occasions. 40 of those games occured AFTER Juan Castro was acquired. Juan played in 22 of those games and started 9. Juan played SS in 14 of those games and 3B in 8. Playing both positions in the same game twice. We saw Juan play as a Twin 16 times each game played at SS. So, I have 38 games to work with. 30 Games at SS and 8 at 3B. I just want everyone to have an idea of what I am looking at as far as the initial breakdown of data.

    I called Former Big League Manager and Atlanta Braves Super Scout Jim Fregosi, who was a big league SS, for an opinion. I also called Bobby Wine as he is Atlanta's Advance Scout and a top advisor to Mr. Schuerholz. I called both of them because they are probably the two smartest and well respected evaluators in the business. I completely respect Cyclone and Steel's data and find it revealing and invigorating. Calling Jim and Bobby gives me an equal opinion from across the table.

    First the Data:

    What I have here is pretty good stuff. I pulled our reports on the two Gold Glovers up the Middle. Orlando Hudson and Omar Vizquel. As well as 3B Scott Rolen. I wanted to see what was written and input about those very good defensive players and how it compared, if at all, to Juan. Of the observations made on Castro and compared to O & O I thought it was funny that in one observation Castro's name was mentioned. "Still makes the backhand as smooth as a Juan Castro".

    I'll start with 3B. Now, Juan is an above average 3B in my opinion because of three things. 1) Positioning 2) Fielding ability 3) Game intelligence Obviously Rolen is rated way over the top of Castro. Every fielding category has Rolen rated at the top. Backhand, Forehand, going back on a ball, coming in, cutting across, feed to 2B, playing in front of the bag, behind the bag and an overall "range" ratingas well as an "arm rating. The only 3B that are at that level or "HAVE BEEN CLOSE" in the last 4-5 years are Eric Chavez, Alex Rodriguez (whose ratings have obviously fallen), and David Bell. So, how does Juan Rate? On a grading scale of 1-8 Juan is a 6 in almost every category. He's a 7 on the feed to 2B and backhand. I can attest to that. For further comaprison EE is a 4 in most areas 5 in a few and a 7 in ARM. David Wright is a consistent 6/7. Aramis Ramirez is 4/5. Chipper Jones is a consistent 5. Ryan Zimmerman is a consistent 6 with a few 7's and will probably one day end up like Rolen. Juan "Rates" pretty well as a 3B. The trouble is that his fielding sample is so small as a 3B that it is tough for me to Gauge him long term or properly against everyday 3B. I was just curious to see how he did in other people's eyes. I did notice reading these game notes, albeit a small sample, that Juan was involved in a lot of plays at 3B. He managed them flawlessly. A number of times he was playing 3B coming off the bench and made plays that were not considered routine. You can not practice those in the tunnel. On at least 5 occasions he replaced EE after EE had commited at least 1 error. Could this skew the evaluation? I'm not sure. Certainly Juan is not one of the Boyer brothers at 3B but he is at least "rated" above average based on what others saw in his performance. I tend to agree based upon what I have seen over the years. IMO it again comes down to Positioning, Fielding ability and Game Intelligence. He's pretty darn good at those 3 things.

    SS: Cyclone and Gonelong brought up a GREAT point about positioning. As I cycled through the SS's and their evaluations I noticed the common theme. Almost every SS camps out 1-3 steps closer to the hole depending on of course the hitter and or type of pitcher. They all do it. A ball that just gets by them that maybe they looked like they should have had, may have been a ball they were not expecting in that spot based on a tendency. So, does that affect his range? If everyone is doing the same thing then what is the benchmark? Do you need to be quicker to your right if you are already standing there? Or is that why you have more "range" to your left because an off-hit ball requires you to hustle up the middle for it. Every big league infielder I have ever met or coached is quicker/"rangier", if you will, to their glove side. Remember I had Ordonez in AAA. I've seen no one since him with his type of range. He'd be an 11. Vizquel actually rates pretty well with his glove. 6/7's mostly. That is JUST based on how he fields the ball. His range is decidedly average. To his left is where he really slows down. He's a 4. We observed 31 "moderate" ground balls over the bag and he did not touch ONE. To his right he rated in the 7's but he typically plays in the hole and really camps out there most of the game. In the advance reports we talk about the ability to "hard Bunt" to Durham because he cheats up the middle. Niekro is pretty slow and Right Handed. With a Lefty on the mound and a good bunter you could pull that off two or three times. Vizquel's arm is a 5 out of 8. Eckstein's arm is a 5. Just enough. Vizquel is the epitome of playing smart. Juan is on that Cerebral level with more ability. For the record I think using Vizquel is not that great of an example because honestly I do not think he is a gold glover. Yeah I know he only had a few errors, etc... but he doesn't GET TO anything. Durham covers more SS AS A 2B than he does and he's old too!!

    I could not do a 2B comparison. No data. I did notice that Orlando Hudson has some of the best comments, along with Rolen, attached to his info. "TREMENDOUS" hands, long reaching range and ability to snap a ball back to 1B instantly. Complete awareness of the field, superior anticipation skills, the best footwork at 2B in the Big Leagues. His cuts and angles are practiced and flawless. Here's a good one "His hands are so soft I'm not sure why he bothers with a glove at all". We have him charted on 12 occasions making plays on the SS side of the bag 8-10 feet behind 2B. That is outstanding. I really do not think Juan can do that. Then again I'm not sure even Brandon Phillips can either.


    Jim and Bobby:

    Well they both like him. Neither thinks he is the greatest thing since sliced bread but they both feel he is an "exceptional" glove man. They both made mention that his bat is what surprised some people while he was a Red. Jim liked him because he is always confident in the field and knows exactly what to do with the baseball. He pointed out some of the Tigers deficiencies and said "I bet they wish Inge had Castro's brains" LOL! I would agree. I told them both about the discussion. I put out my theories, they listened. I talked about the charts and the expected vs. actual, etc... Bobby said this "Is the guy Ozzie Smith"? I said "No". "Does he make all of the plays anyone would expect him to make"? IMO, "Yes". "Is he BETTER than the players he replaces"? IMO "Yes". As Bobby says "There ya have it". Certainly there is more debate but I still believe Juan is an above average fielder and a "worthy" Major League Baseball Player.


    I wanted to use the Inside Edge Data but there really isn't any. The system is not designed for this type of use. It can tell you where to position a guy in a certain situation but it can not tell you if the fielder did his job. I was a little dissapointed after I dug into the Defensive chart that none of it is based on actual, visual observation. Just one mathematic equation after another. Although I found them to be pretty darn good I can say that I would never solely base any decision on this info.
    Thanks, TC. That was a very good post. Thanks for going to all the trouble.

  6. #170
    Strategery RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Reds ink Bubba Crosby to a 1 year deal

    Just read this little soap opera, and I can't believe how gutless and cowardly this attack is. And it is an attack, make no mistake about it.

    If all you were concerned about was the truth, couldn't all of this be done in private? But that's not your style, is it?

    Gutless internet coward.

    I guess if you're right Steel, Ken Griffey and Tom Hume are in on the little scam too? Yep, they're risking their reputations helping to perpetrate this whole thing. I'm sorry, you probably haven't had time to depose them yet. Let us know when you get their statements back.

    Steel, would you have the guts to say any of this stuff to TC's face, I wonder? Actually, I don't wonder at all.
    We'll go down in history as the first society that wouldn't save itself because it wasn't cost effective ~ Kurt Vonnegut

  7. #171
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    Re: Reds ink Bubba Crosby to a 1 year deal

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    Hey, not that I don't appreciate the effort, but if you're going to bring information to the table you know you're going to have to defend it, same as me.

    In this case, you had to realize someone was going to question a methodology that involved you answering questions with opinions you already held. Contrary to what you may have taken from my post, that wasn't an indictment of either you or Bobby Wine; simply a question as to methodology. And, as you mentioned yourself, you didn't note that your conversation went any deeper than that. Unfortunately, you responded with a backhand slap and a rolling eyes emoticon. Bad idea. Really bad idea.

    So while you're getting all defensive I should, in all honesty, tell you that there are issues with the form and content of your Fregosi/Wine conversational recounts. Additionally, your defense of not wanting to "diminish" the words of Fregosi/Wine is rendered moot considering that the only Fregosi quote you cited was an indictment of Brandon Inge's intelligence. You really think Fregosi would want that quote riding around the internet? I'm no Shelbourne University grad, but I'm smart enough to know the answer to that rhetorical question.

    Your last (and largest) mistake was so hidden in plain sight that everyone else missed it. Heck, I almost missed it. No professional baseball scout in their right mind is going to pull up a database of their team's internal scouting records and share those records on a public message board. A scout would have to be actually looking to get fired to do what you did.

    So either you're just making it all up as you go along or you value attention more than you do your career. Neither option allows me to consider you as someone who has an iota of credibility.

    You're done. Move along.
    I've gotten multiple complaints about this post just this morning. Take this stuff private, your attitude toward posters who do not share your views needs to change or perhaps you need some time off from Redszone.

  8. #172
    Member RollyInRaleigh's Avatar
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    Re: Reds ink Bubba Crosby to a 1 year deal

    That was the most blatant, cowardly attack that I have ever read on Redszone. I've seen a lot on this board, but this is the absolute worst. Stunning.

  9. #173
    Passion for the game Team Clark's Avatar
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    Re: Reds ink Bubba Crosby to a 1 year deal

    I'm not even going to respond. That is a new level of ridiculous.
    It's absolutely pathetic that people can't have an opinion from actually watching games and supplementing that with stats. If you voice an opinion that doesn't fit into a black/white box you will get completely misrepresented and basically called a tobacco chewing traditionalist...
    Cedric 3/24/08

  10. #174
    Goober GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Reds ink Bubba Crosby to a 1 year deal

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62 View Post
    Just read this little soap opera, and I can't believe how gutless and cowardly this attack is. And it is an attack, make no mistake about it.

    If all you were concerned about was the truth, couldn't all of this be done in private? But that's not your style, is it?

    Gutless internet coward.

    I guess if you're right Steel, Ken Griffey and Tom Hume are in on the little scam too? Yep, they're risking their reputations helping to perpetrate this whole thing. I'm sorry, you probably haven't had time to depose them yet. Let us know when you get their statements back.

    Steel, would you have the guts to say any of this stuff to TC's face, I wonder? Actually, I don't wonder at all.
    Man! I couldn't agree more. I mean....Wow! That almost boarders on an obsessive-compulsive behavior (stalking) to find out that another poster is putting in so much "detective" work, and that much of an effort, investigating another poster "behind the scenes", just so that you can, at some point, pull your "trump card" out to publically attempt to humiliate and destroy their reputation. It's J. Edgar Hoover scary!

    Even if what you claim is true Steele, you should have addressed him privately.

    What you did, IMO, was shameful and very childish. Bluntly? A terrible personal attack that was unwarranted.

    Do you feel better now?

    I noticed that TC and Cyclone were carrying on the same discussion over Castro, and both were able to keep it on a respectful and even keel, even while disagreeing.

    Why couldn't you?
    Last edited by GAC; 11-13-2006 at 08:23 AM.
    "In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)

  11. #175
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Reds ink Bubba Crosby to a 1 year deal

    It's nice all of you have your opinions over this little row but practice what you preach and keep it private or else I'm going to close the thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Chip is right

  12. #176
    This one's for you Edd Heath's Avatar
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    Re: Reds ink Bubba Crosby to a 1 year deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    It's nice all of you have your opinions over this little row but practice what you preach and keep it private or else I'm going to close the thread.
    Probably wouldn't be a bad idea anyway and for it to disappear.

    Wow - from someone who consistantly harps on not attacking other posters and then absolutely goes hypocritical on one poster is blinded by his own ego. Not good.
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