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Thread: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

  1. #421
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric View Post
    Yep, it's that easy.

    Give me a break.
    Last spring Arroyo was 7th in line for starts at Boston behind Beckett, Schilling, Clement, Wells, Wakefield and Papelbon - and Lester was gaining on him. He was being offered around to anyone who would take his contract. Krivsky gave his starting LF for him and hit the lottery as some one said. I'm glad it worked out and it was a deal that made sense, but it was no great genius move.

    He made similar easy moves for Phillips and Ross. He picked up Ross because Larue was hurt and had no idea the offense was coming. I do give him more credit for Phillips because it would have been easy to pass with his crowded infield.

    IMO he has only made one real bold move "trade." That was the disaster with Washington. The rest was just picking up unwanted guys from the back of some one else's roster. Arroyo's performance afterward doesn't change the situation at the time he was acquired. Giving up Pena meant more to the Reds than giving up Arroyo did to Boston. The Reds traded Pena reluctantly. Boston gave up Arroyo willingly.

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  3. #422
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    .2/09/07
    Last edited by Ga_Red; 02-09-2007 at 03:42 AM.

  4. #423
    Member Cedric's Avatar
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Last spring Arroyo was 7th in line for starts at Boston behind Beckett, Schilling, Clement, Wells, Wakefield and Papelbon - and Lester was gaining on him. He was being offered around to anyone who would take his contract. Krivsky gave his starting LF for him and hit the lottery as some one said. I'm glad it worked out and it was a deal that made sense, but it was no great genius move.

    He made similar easy moves for Phillips and Ross. He picked up Ross because Larue was hurt and had no idea the offense was coming. I do give him more credit for Phillips because it would have been easy to pass with his crowded infield.

    IMO he has only made one real bold move "trade." That was the disaster with Washington. The rest was just picking up unwanted guys from the back of some one else's roster. Arroyo's performance afterward doesn't change the situation at the time he was acquired. Giving up Pena meant more to the Reds than giving up Arroyo did to Boston. The Reds traded Pena reluctantly. Boston gave up Arroyo willingly.
    I get your drift. Wayne Krivsky just wins the lottery alot.

    The other times he is a clueless, clumsy bum.

    Right?
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.

  5. #424
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric View Post
    I get your drift. Wayne Krivsky just wins the lottery alot.

    Right?
    I think Krivsky liked what he saw in Arroyo. But I think mth123 is exactly right in that Boston was going to surrender him to the first team who offered even decent offense in return.

    I doubt the whole thing was much of a sweaty negotiation. In fact, it was a perfect match. Sure, give Krivsky credit for targetting the right guy, but that deal was something M2 mentioned on a lark well before the season started. It really wasn't rocket science.

  6. #425
    Mon chou Choo vaticanplum's Avatar
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric View Post
    I get your drift. Wayne Krivsky just wins the lottery alot.

    The other times he is a clueless, clumsy bum.

    Right?
    Cedric, he just gave a thoughtful analysis of a number of moves on a case-by-case basis. Without putting words in his mouth, I think that a black-and-white, good vs. bad judgment is exactly the thing he's trying to avoid.
    There is no such thing as a pitching prospect.

  7. #426
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    I think Krivsky liked what he saw in Arroyo. But I think mth123 is exactly right in that Boston was going to surrender him to the first team who offered even decent offense in return.

    I doubt the whole thing was much of a sweaty negotiation. In fact, it was a perfect match. Sure, give Krivsky credit for targetting the right guy, but that deal was something M2 mentioned on a lark well before the season started. It really wasn't rocket science.
    What does it taking rocket science have to do with anything? It's a far cry from wanting someone and then having the cajones and foresight to get the job done.
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.

  8. #427
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by vaticanplum View Post
    Cedric, he just gave a thoughtful analysis of a number of moves on a case-by-case basis. Without putting words in his mouth, I think that a black-and-white, good vs. bad judgment is exactly the thing he's trying to avoid.
    I call it like I see it.

    He has Krivsky winning the lottery all the time. Anything wrong with me forming that opinion from his own words?
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.

  9. #428
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Why would he have picked up David Ross if he hadn't seen any potential in his approach and swing? For David's stellar defense?

    It just doesn't make sense to take away a guys scouting ability and vision because you don't like his later moves. It reeks of bias.
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.

  10. #429
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric View Post
    What does it taking rocket science have to do with anything? .
    I don't know. You tell me. You seem to be the one staunchly defending Wayne's intelligence against any and all detractors.

  11. #430
    Mon chou Choo vaticanplum's Avatar
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric View Post
    I call it like I see it.

    He has Krivsky winning the lottery all the time. Anything wrong with me forming that opinion from his own words?
    No, but I'm expressing mine. that's just not how I read it. He is saying (I think) that Wayne was filling needs in those trades, not working miracles. That doesn't make them bad trades; quite the opposite in fact, as filling needs is what a GM is supposed to do.

    I personally would rather have smart moves than miracles. Miracles can blow up in your face. And I also think that's the point relating to the Washington trade: that was an overambitious, uneven trade that created needs rather than filling them, so it blew up.
    There is no such thing as a pitching prospect.

  12. #431
    Member Cedric's Avatar
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    I don't know. You tell me. You seem to be the one staunchly defending Wayne's intelligence against any and all detractors.
    By defending his scouting and vision.

    That's not rocket science FCB. Nice try though.
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.

  13. #432
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Last spring Arroyo was 7th in line for starts at Boston behind Beckett, Schilling, Clement, Wells, Wakefield and Papelbon - and Lester was gaining on him. He was being offered around to anyone who would take his contract. Krivsky gave his starting LF for him and hit the lottery as some one said. I'm glad it worked out and it was a deal that made sense, but it was no great genius move.

    He made similar easy moves for Phillips and Ross. He picked up Ross because Larue was hurt and had no idea the offense was coming. I do give him more credit for Phillips because it would have been easy to pass with his crowded infield.

    IMO he has only made one real bold move "trade." That was the disaster with Washington. The rest was just picking up unwanted guys from the back of some one else's roster. Arroyo's performance afterward doesn't change the situation at the time he was acquired. Giving up Pena meant more to the Reds than giving up Arroyo did to Boston. The Reds traded Pena reluctantly. Boston gave up Arroyo willingly.
    Very poor post. Claiming chance success on one hand, and poor skill on the other. Irrational. Disheartening.
    "Don't trust any statistics you did not fake yourself."--Winston Churchill

  14. #433
    Member Cedric's Avatar
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by vaticanplum View Post
    No, but I'm expressing mine. that's just not how I read it. He is saying (I think) that Wayne was filling needs in those trades, not working miracles. That doesn't make them bad trades; quite the opposite in fact, as filling needs is what a GM is supposed to do.

    I personally would rather have smart moves than miracles. Miracles can blow up in your face. And I also think that's the point relating to the Washington trade: that was an overambitious, uneven trade that created needs rather than filling them, so it blew up.
    Again, why is saying someone showed good vision and scouting ability akin to producing miracles?

    Please point out where I said that. If I did I apologize before hand.
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.

  15. #434
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric View Post
    I get your drift. Wayne Krivsky just wins the lottery alot.

    The other times he is a clueless, clumsy bum.

    Right?
    Well I never said clueless, clumsy or bum. That's you putting words in my mouth. No need to get so confrontational.

    I think he's better than DanO and Bowden. Given the timing of his takeover he still deserves an offseason to show what he can do. But his moves that worked out were not the result of having a great plan or pulling off some fantastic move. He was opportunistic and some of the moves worked. That's better than passing I suppose.

    I don't really fault him for Mays, Franklin and Cormier. By then he was in deep and took a shot. But I don't like the Castro deal, I'm on the fence on Gonzalez (but I think Phillips was a better alternative with more options to fill 2B) and really think the Stanton signing was pouring money down a hole unless a trade of Cormier comes behind it to bring something. He's just more of the same. Trading Larue was a good move. Signing Crosby was a nothing and I don't understand all the angst about it. Jerry Gil may end up a real good move and if not, well nothing really lost.

    He's made a lot of moves so I may have missed a couple but that's pretty much where I stand. Nothing to really impress me so far, 1 really bad move made in the heat of a penant race and really not enough time in the job to say he stinks. But I don't have to automatically think he's great either.

  16. #435
    Mon chou Choo vaticanplum's Avatar
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Ok, to be fair, Cedric, you didn't. The original post I'm talking about is this one:

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I think he saw a guy who had no role in Boston and was very available. He picked him up because it was easy. The rest was good pitching by Arroyo and good fortune for WK. There was no special wisdom. He picked-up a very available arm for a team that needed one. Anyone could have made that deal. He traded the guy who was his starting LF at the time for a guy that was completly on the outs. In that context he should have gotten more. Boston was just happy to move his contract.
    But you responded to this curtly and with no information, so I didn't infer "good vision and scouting ability" from that. Maybe this is semantics. I agree with mth here on the Arroyo pickup for the most part, but I also agree that good vision and scouting ability are a part of that. He used the phrase "special wisdom" which to me implies something loftier or a unique ability not possessed by most GMs, something beyond vision and scouting.

    Look, I really do agree with most of Krivsky's moves, but like I said a couple of pages back, I think that sometimes we overhail the Arroyo trade -- or, more accurately, we hail it in the wrong way. It was a very smart and even-handed move. It wasn't the surprising gift of wisdom that some seem to think it was. A lot of people knew how good Bronson Arroyo was; Krivsky just happened to come up with the right thing to deal for him at the right time. That's not belittling what he did; that's just to say that it was a good baseball move and not "rocket science" as the kids say.
    There is no such thing as a pitching prospect.


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