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Thread: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

  1. #316
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    The question is, what did Krivsky see in Arroyo that made him realize how well he would perform for the Reds? What did he know that Theo Epstein and most other people on the planet didn't know?

    And why didn't that special wisdom help Krivsky recognize the difference between Arroyo and the likes of Mays, Majewski, et al?
    I'd ask his scouting staff, but there's an old baseball adage, "If you don't have a few failures here and there then you aren't really trying." Big wins and little losses don't bother me, and the jury is not done concerning the mid season trade yet, that has to play out more IMO. But that of course is my opinion.

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  3. #317
    Member Cedric's Avatar
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    What is that chart telling us? That WK made a great acquisition with Arroyo and that's it? It takes more than one good move to get my buy in.
    The real meat and potatoes with a GM is how he does in the offseason. All this hand wringing about mid season flyers is just overly dramatic, IMO.

    If you wanna debate about Majewski injury and Felipe trade that's a different story. But arguing that Krivsky somehow has no eye for talent because of Esteban Yan over Mike Burns than so be it.
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.

  4. #318
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Reds had more then 25 pitchers and that was the default.

    Code:
    T26  Chris Hammond                -7   
    T26  Joe Mays                     -7   
    28   David Williams              -10   
    29   Brandon Claussen            -12

  5. #319
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Reds had more then 25 pitchers and that was the default.

    Code:
    T26  Chris Hammond                -7   
    T26  Joe Mays                     -7   
    28   David Williams              -10   
    29   Brandon Claussen            -12
    Ok. Again, I stated Arroyo was an outstanding acquisition. but add up the rest and his over all value is diminished. The pen killed him in July and August. Mays killed the reds every time he pitched except for his 1st game. Franklin, awful. Maj, abysmal. Guardado benefited from switching leagues and was done in 2 weeks.

    Krivsky has done a few things right. some were even fantastic. But taken as a part of his overall body of work you see that his MO is to make as many transactions as possible in the hope that someone pans out.

    How very Bowdenish.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  6. #320
    Member Cedric's Avatar
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Ok. Again, I stated Arroyo was an outstanding acquisition. but add up the rest and his over all value is diminished. The pen killed him in July and August. Mays killed the reds every time he pitched except for his 1st game. Franklin, awful. Maj, abysmal. Guardado benefited from switching leagues and was done in 2 weeks.

    Krivsky has done a few things right. some were even fantastic. But taken as a part of his overall body of work you see that his MO is to make as many transactions as possible in the hope that someone pans out.

    How very Bowdenish.
    The pen killed him in July and August and that was because of Krivsky how? He inherited a miserable pitching staff.

    You can't improve a pitching staff that bad in mid season. The best you can do is take flyers on certain pitchers and hope for the best.

    I seriously doubt Wayne had visions of dominating relief pitching when he dealt for Yan.
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.

  7. #321
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    I'd ask his scouting staff, but there's an old baseball adage, "If you don't have a few failures here and there then you aren't really trying." Big wins and little losses don't bother me, and the jury is not done concerning the mid season trade yet, that has to play out more IMO. But that of course is my opinion.
    The Kearns/Lopez deal is looking worse by the minute. Based on the kind of scratch guys like Mark Derosa are pulling down this offseason, it looks like Krivsky really shot himself in the spine by giving away two prime trading chips for average bullpen arms.

    The question is still unanswered, though. If Krivsky's scouting staff is so wise that they could foresee Arroyo's turnaround, shouldn't they be able to make more acquistions like that one?

    Or did Krivsky simply hit the lottery?
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  8. #322
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Ok. Again, I stated Arroyo was an outstanding acquisition. but add up the rest and his over all value is diminished. The pen killed him in July and August. Mays killed the reds every time he pitched except for his 1st game. Franklin, awful. Maj, abysmal. Guardado benefited from switching leagues and was done in 2 weeks.

    Krivsky has done a few things right. some were even fantastic. But taken as a part of his overall body of work you see that his MO is to make as many transactions as possible in the hope that someone pans out.

    How very Bowdenish.
    From what I can tell the only pitchers with negatives on that list that belong to Krivsky are Mays and Maj. Most are hovering around the average level, about what one would expect from dumpster diving in the midst of a season fraught with parity.

  9. #323
    This one's for you Edd Heath's Avatar
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    I think that Nats trade freaked out a lot of people. It was a thoroughly awful deal from the get go. It wasn't good in theory, it didn't work in practice and it's put the team two steps back heading into the offseason (where there'd be a burgeoning market for guys like Lopez and Kearns).

    IMO that put a taint on Krivsky's other spastic, but harmless attempts to mine some player talent to keep the team in the hunt. Without the Nats trade, guys like Mays and Yan would be largely forgotten. Now they're emblematic of a deep seated problem to some folks.

    I still take comfort in the fact that Krivsky did more good in his first two months than DanO did in two years. He's certainly aggressive and active, which is good because he's got a lot to do. I like the Gonzalez signing (though I'm queasy about the third year) because it directly addresses something that desperately needed to be addressed. Gonzalez wouldn't have been my first choice, but I'm not going to fault Krivsky for getting a primo glove man when what he needed was a primo glove man.

    I understand it offers no comfort to those who have been (justifiably) worried about the offense, but it's possible Krivsky choked during his first in-season test as a GM and that he'll get back to making the Reds a better-rounded ballclub (and that includes offense) during the offseason.
    Bingo.


    BTW, what's the topic anyway? Alex Gonzalez to the Reds or the same hash that's been dissected more than your turkey carcass from last Thanksgiving?

    WK made a trade he thought would help the ballclub. It didn't give the immediate satisfaction, so it must be a failure.

    Yikes, give the guy a break. It's not even DECEMBER yet.
    Some people play baseball. Baseball plays Jay Bruce.

  10. #324
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    The question is still unanswered, though. If Krivsky's scouting staff is so wise that they could foresee Arroyo's turnaround, shouldn't they be able to make more acquistions like that one?

    Or did Krivsky simply hit the lottery?
    Tune in and find out... I certainly don't know.

    But I'm not too worried about it myself.

  11. #325
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    MY opinion will change if they go and get some serious help in the way of pitching and hitting. And the kind of help that wins you championships, not stopgaps. If they have the resources to go and get some good pitching, then this signing will look a lot better. But I am just not believing yet that this will take place.
    What good pitching is out there? Even if they had the money to throw at a Zito he wouldn't come here IMHO.

    Even the teams with the resources are out there looking with little luck, and even their resources cannot cause good pitching to appear out of thin air.

    If this doesn't happen, then this signing will look a lot worse.
    Not IMO.

    Gonzo is here, because of his defensive abilities, to vastly improve one area that killed this team last year?

    He is simply a piece of the puzzle.

    Question: Would you have signed Davey Concepcion who had a career OPS of sub-700?

    If I were to put Davey's numbers up here, without identifying the player, alot of people on here would scream "marginal player. Pass!"


    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    AGon is a perfect fit for a team like Boston, who has Manny, Ortiz, Schilling, etc etc.
    He's a perfect fit for any team that needs a solid defensive SS.

    People agree that we needed a SS, and that our middle INF defense needed improvement. But they wanted Krivsky to somehow go out and sign a guy who is both solid offensively and defensively.

    OK. Where is that guy? Jeter and Arod are signed, and the cost for that calibre of a player would sap what financial resources we have and prevent us from addressing other areas of need.

    Face it! We're not the Yank, Sox, Cubs, or Mets.

    He is a nice player when you need to just plug a hole with a guy who won't hurt you. This team, at this point, needs more help than non-hurt.
    So you're saying there is no advantage, nor improvement, over what we had at SS? I respectfully disagree.

    He is not here for his bat.


    We need pitching. I've been looking at this market as far as pitching goes, and it is going to be awfully hard at this time for the Reds to acquire a solid SP.

    Where are all the teams running up to the Weavers, Suppans, Marquis, and Mulders, and in a rush to sign them?

    The Reds may be able to swing a deal and get a capable, as some call them, second tier guy; but even then, at what cost? It's going to come down to either overpaying in $$$$$, or maybe overpaying in player(s) in a trade.

    And Krivsky got nailed for one of those type trades this past summer.

    That is why I want them to exercise caution, and if it even comes down to it - say "pass".

    And if you're expected to swing a trade with another GM(s) in these meetings for pitching, then you first better have something to trade in return.

    That is the other problem.

    On this team, as far as established players with any kind of resume of performance who are marketable/tradeable, who do we have?

    Dunn and a couple pitchers (Arroyo, Harang). Young players like EE and PHillips aren't going to fetch you much, and these are the kinds of players the Reds need to hold on to.

    If there a LARGE moves coming down the pike, then this will look a lot better for me.
    There has to be those "larger" moves at some point in the immediate future. But that immediate future may not be THIS off-season. And define what you mean by larger moves?

    IMHO, it's not gonna be like the Cubs-Soriano signing.

    This is what simply amazes me.... and I'm not saying that fans cannot be critical of GMs and the decisons they make.... and this is not necessarily directly addressed at you 44....but I get the impression on this forum that some seem to think that Krivsky is an inept idiot, with no knowledge of statistical analysis, what runs allowed and run production is, and that they, the fan, know more.

    Statistical analysis is an important part of the game. But there are so many other variables involved in a GM's duties/responsibilities, and I think some forget that. It's not a Yahoo Fantasy League were one doesn't have to worry about the economic factors such as salary, budget, contracts, free agency, arbitration, etc.

    I believe Wayne does possess that knowledege. I think Wayne knows full well what our offensive numbers were in 2006, and all the other important variables/correlations.

    But it's one thing to understand it, and know what needs to be done... and quite another in going out and trying to acquire those players.

    I think he does have a plan. I don't believe he has to be completely open about it in a public way, and lay it out for the fans in a Cincinnati Enquirer article. He has the competition to also worry about.

    I'm just willing to give him (and Castellini) that opportunity.

    But they are not going to right this ship in one off-season.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  12. #326
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric View Post
    The pen killed him in July and August and that was because of Krivsky how? He inherited a miserable pitching staff.

    You can't improve a pitching staff that bad in mid season. The best you can do is take flyers on certain pitchers and hope for the best.

    I seriously doubt Wayne had visions of dominating relief pitching when he dealt for Yan.
    Then why deal for him? or Mays? Or Franklin?

    What exactly did they offer that Salmon or Medlock didn't?

    By July, that pen was pretty much molded in Krivsky's image. He knew what he wanted and went and got it. It was a different pen than April, May, June when Arroyo was racking up wins. That pen needed help, not what Krivsky brought in, but actual help.

    Why deal for a Cody Ross then trade him in order to keep Q or Hollandsworth?

    This goes to the throw it against the wall pattern he has shown thus far.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  13. #327
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Then why deal for him? or Mays? Or Franklin?

    What exactly did they offer that Salmon or Medlock didn't?

    By July, that pen was pretty much molded in Krivsky's image. He knew what he wanted and went and got it. It was a different pen than April, May, June when Arroyo was racking up wins. That pen needed help, not what Krivsky brought in, but actual help.

    Why deal for a Cody Ross then trade him in order to keep Q or Hollandsworth?

    This goes to the throw it against the wall pattern he has shown thus far.
    I tend to agree.

    If Krivsky's deals were based on some kind of methodology, be it scouting or statistical analysis, you'd expect some kind of consistency. Thusfar, he's been all over the place.

    Granted, he does seem to be following an overall philosophy -- pitching and defense. Unfortunately, he hasn't shown much consistency in identifying either of those.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  14. #328
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool View Post
    I see what you're saying, but that's like giving Krivsky credit for being able to breathe and feed himself.
    I don't know, landing Arroyo and mining Phillips was no mean feat. Put it this way, four more scores like that and the Reds would be a hell of team.

    Those aren't cases of Krivsky managing to avoid damaging the franchise (which is what I'd classify as being able to breathe and feed himself), those are cases of him giving the franchise a decided push forward.

    I'm hoping that what went down this summer was an overreaction to what was happening on the field. I'm also hoping Krivsky learns from it. Surely Krivsky noticed his team couldn't buy a run later in the season and hopefully he noticed the stark difference between the team that wore out opposing pitchers early in the season and the one that flailed helplessly in the final two months of the year.

    Given his demonstrated ability to do good things, I'm not willing to put up an epitaph on him at the moment. I'm not convinced Krivsky's got as bad a compass as some fear. This offseason's going to tell us a lot about him. I like that he took the team's defensive issues seriously enough to actually do something about it, but I'm confused by the Stanton signing.

    Since I maintained that it was going to take a pile of moves for the Reds to get to where they need to be (and since Krivsky's shown himself to be an active GM), I'm not viewing the first moves as necessarily the most important ones. As opposed to past winters, I expect the Reds to be exceedingly busy. The real key will be whether Krivsky can be busy like JimBo in the 98-99 winter instead of DanO in 04-05 winter.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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  15. #329
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool View Post
    The Kearns/Lopez deal is looking worse by the minute. Based on the kind of scratch guys like Mark Derosa are pulling down this offseason, it looks like Krivsky really shot himself in the spine by giving away two prime trading chips for average bullpen arms.
    Not to underscore the intention of your post (which I agree with), but the market for those same average bullpen arms has also shot through the roof (see Speier, Walker etc.). And one might suggest that the cost of bullpen arms is actually rising faster than other positions.

  16. #330
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    From what I can tell the only pitchers with negatives on that list that belong to Krivsky are Mays and Maj. Most are hovering around the average level, about what one would expect from dumpster diving in the midst of a season fraught with parity.
    Except even the list doesn't tell the whole story.

    Acquiring Guardado KNOWING he was hurt, is IMO a negative value move. The ERA is deceptive, as that was likely due to the change in leagues. I mean he was pitching in Safeco! It doesn't get much friendlier for pitchers.

    By what metric is Ryan Franklin close to league average?

    And how many times does a GM have to acquire ingured players before we get to question his abilities?

    Bowden once was pretty good at dumpster diving. He made it into an art in fact. It didn't make him a good GM, just like Krivsky's lack of that ability doesn't make him a bad GM.

    But as a fan I get to point it out when he makes a bad move. And he's made a LOT of them in his short tenure.

    I'll say it right now. His move to get Arroyo put the reds in the wildcard race.

    And nearly every move he made after April kept them from that wildcard spot.
    Suck it up cupcake.


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