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Thread: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

  1. #376
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric View Post
    Felipe is a good player, but he can only be useful for a winning team if he's at another position, IMO.

    I'm not sure about his attitude or his temperate, but I don't know if Felipe would be willing to move away from SS. If he wasn't willing or going to be moved by Krivsky than I am glad he's not a part of this team.

    I do wish Krivsky could have netted more in return though.
    I'd like to have him right now, as potential trade bait.

    Since I have no idea as to whether anybody seriously broached the notion of a position switch with him, I'm not going to speculate on what his response may or may not have been. Though in these cases I generally subscribe to the notion that when the team says "You're not cutting defensively where you are and we're moving to another position where we think you'll be better," the player tends to move. The team controls the lineup card, the bench and the roster (including the suspension list).

    Plus, Felipe played multiple positions in each of his first three seasons with the Reds without complaint.
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  3. #377
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Medlock had been a starter until hitting AA. As a starter all he did was produce. He gets a deserved promotion to AA and they convert him to relief. Now, I think that was a mistake, but once again, all he did was produce in that role.

    dude can pitch.

    Salmon was ready to at least get a look. He had as much chance to succeed as Yan/Maj/Franklin

    And all he cost was a roster spot. Same with Shearn.
    Shearn is a career minor leaguer for a reason, apparently. Medlock will likely have his day and he has done nothing but perform. I just don't see his jump from AA as being helpful last year. Salmon is one who probably deserved a shot last year, but I imagine he has some sort of wart holding him back since he is 26 and had a really good year at AAA according to the basic numbers.

  4. #378
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Shearn is a career minor leaguer for a reason, apparently. Medlock will likely have his day and he has done nothing but perform. I just don't see his jump from AA as being helpful last year. Salmon is one who probably deserved a shot last year, but I imagine he has some sort of wart holding him back since he is 26 and had a really good year at AAA according to the basic numbers.
    Again, this is flawed logic.

    The Reds talent evaluators hold back Salmon and Shearn because they have flaws, but then they don't recognize said flaws in the players they acquire?

    Salmon doesn't get a promotion, but the Reds trade for Ryan Franklin.

    Shearn doesn't get a promotion, but the Reds gave Mays 4 starts, and 7 appearances overall?

    IF Shearn can't cut it, then at least we know that if he gets the opportunity. Mays couldn't cut it with KC. We already KNEW he was done.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  5. #379
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    I'd like to have him right now, as potential trade bait.

    Since I have no idea as to whether anybody seriously broached the notion of a position switch with him, I'm not going to speculate on what his response may or may not have been. Though in these cases I generally subscribe to the notion that when the team says "You're not cutting defensively where you are and we're moving to another position where we think you'll be better," the player tends to move. The team controls the lineup card, the bench and the roster (including the suspension list).

    Plus, Felipe played multiple positions in each of his first three seasons with the Reds without complaint.
    I have no idea if Felipe would have moved easily, I won't speculate on a players attitude unless there is some info, I agree with you there. I do think it's a little harder for a player to move after he get's settled into a position and wins a berth in the all star game. Something like that can change a players perception, and maybe rightfully so.
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.

  6. #380
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Again, this is flawed logic.

    The Reds talent evaluators hold back Salmon and Shearn because they have flaws, but then they don't recognize said flaws in the players they acquire?

    Salmon doesn't get a promotion, but the Reds trade for Ryan Franklin.

    Shearn doesn't get a promotion, but the Reds gave Mays 4 starts, and 7 appearances overall?

    IF Shearn can't cut it, then at least we know that if he gets the opportunity. Mays couldn't cut it with KC. We already KNEW he was done.
    In a pennant race, the Reds opted for experience. They knew some of these players weren't great, but they valued their experience and thought they could perform, at least for a short time.

    I don't think this is flawed logic.

  7. #381
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Jason Jennings and Dontrelle Willis leap to mind. Brandon Webb too. Though I'd be surprised if any of the above got traded.
    I imagine a go-getter GM like Schuerholz or Jocketty pockets Jason Jennings for minor league redundancies.

    It is O'Dowd after all.

  8. #382
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric View Post
    I have no idea if Felipe would have moved easily, I won't speculate on a players attitude unless there is some info, I agree with you there. I do think it's a little harder for a player to move after he get's settled into a position and wins a berth in the all star game. Something like that can change a players perception, and maybe rightfully so.
    Agreed. Certainly Felipe's focus, rightly so, was on trying to succeed as a SS. I think the media and fans sometimes mistake that for a refusal to move. Lopez has to put all of his mental energy into making it as a SS. He can't afford to think about whether he really ought to play at another position. He'd never succeed with that sort of mindset.

    It's the team's job to think about whether he ought to play somewhere else and it ought to recognize that while players may find positional shifts uncomfortable, they'll probably apply that singular focus to their new position once they realize the change has become inevitable.
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  9. #383
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    I imagine a go-getter GM like Schuerholz or Jocketty pockets Jason Jennings for minor league redundancies.

    It is O'Dowd after all.
    I agree - its gonna be one of the smart GM's that grab Jennings. I would think Mazzone in Baltimore is probably lobbying his GM for a chance at Jennings as well.
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  10. #384
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Again, this is flawed logic.

    The Reds talent evaluators hold back Salmon and Shearn because they have flaws, but then they don't recognize said flaws in the players they acquire?

    Salmon doesn't get a promotion, but the Reds trade for Ryan Franklin.

    Shearn doesn't get a promotion, but the Reds gave Mays 4 starts, and 7 appearances overall?

    IF Shearn can't cut it, then at least we know that if he gets the opportunity. Mays couldn't cut it with KC. We already KNEW he was done.
    Again? I don't recall any uses of flawed logic thus far. As someone has pointed out, Ryan Franklin has been a career average major league pitcher. From what I can see, he has a plus slider and a good enough fastball to set it up that has allowed him to make the show and stick. His "flaws" still make him an average major league pitcher.

    The Reds talent evaluators are looking at minor leaguers and trying to project their "flaws" into some level of major league success and thus far have been unable to arrive at that conclusion. Shearn is really hard to argue since he has spent considerable time in two orgs and still been unable to crack even a cup of coffee.

    It seems that you are failing to realize that even an average major league pitcher is so much better than an average minor league pitcher that to look in the Reds system and see someone putting up what are above average numbers if they were compiled at the major league level really only translate to average numbers at the minor league level.

  11. #385
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Again? I don't recall any uses of flawed logic thus far. As someone has pointed out, Ryan Franklin has been a career average major league pitcher. From what I can see, he has a plus slider and a good enough fastball to set it up that has allowed him to make the show and stick. His "flaws" still make him an average major league pitcher.

    The Reds talent evaluators are looking at minor leaguers and trying to project their "flaws" into some level of major league success and thus far have been unable to arrive at that conclusion. Shearn is really hard to argue since he has spent considerable time in two orgs and still been unable to crack even a cup of coffee.

    It seems that you are failing to realize that even an average major league pitcher is so much better than an average minor league pitcher that to look in the Reds system and see someone putting up what are above average numbers if they were compiled at the major league level really only translate to average numbers at the minor league level.
    Ryan Franklin, for his career, is WELL BELOW a major league average pitcher. WELL BELOW.

  12. #386
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    You just did a bait and switch. Your previous post said "above average everyday players." Now, you are referring to "above average performers on offense." Which is it, since "everday players" entails when these guys take the field as well, which we know drags the value of Lopez down to "average," at best. Then, you define "above average everyday players" based on half a season of offensive performance? There is no data that you can provide for those two, on a historical basis, that qualifies them by some measure of "above average everyday players." You sure do have me confused as to what the criteria are for an "above average everyday player." I never was very good at shooting those moving duckies.
    Sorry I confused you. It wasn't intentional.

    As for there being "no data...that qualifies them by some measure of 'above average everyday players,'" well, you're clearly wrong on that count. M2 pretty much covered this.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    02/08/07
    Last edited by Ga_Red; 02-08-2007 at 02:09 AM.

  14. #388
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    Ryan Franklin, for his career, is WELL BELOW a major league average pitcher. WELL BELOW.
    Code:
    RYAN FRANKLIN
    
    YEAR TEAM         AGE W   L   PCT   G    GS  CG  SV  GF  IP     H    R    ER   BB   SO    ERA  RSAA
    1999 Mariners     26  -1   1                  0  -1             2    1     0   -3   -2   0.11      
    2001 Mariners     28   1   3                  0  -4             5   11     8    4    4   0.92      
    2002 Mariners     29   0   2                 -1  -3             4    2     6   21  -18   0.45      
    2003 Mariners     30  -1  -1                  0   0            20   23    23   14  -45   0.96      
    2004 Mariners     31  -7  -5                  1   0           -15   -4    -6   13  -40  -0.26      
    2005 Mariners     32  -3  -4                  1   0           -16  -10   -16    2  -38  -0.74      
    2006 Phillies     33  -2  -2                  0  -3            -5    1    -1    3  -15  -0.09      
         Reds         33   4  -1                  0  -1            -2   -1     0   -7    0   0.06      
         TOTALS            2  -3                  0  -5            -7    0     0   -4  -15  -0.04      
         TOTALS           -9  -7                  2 -12            -6   22    15   47 -152   0.15      
    
    
    YEAR TEAM          HR  H/9   BR/9  SO/9  BB/9  SO/BB SHO WP  IBB HBP BFP   BK  NW  NL
    1999 Mariners      -1  1.71 -1.36 -1.47 -2.63 -0.93   0   0  -1  -1    -1   0         
    2001 Mariners      -3  0.55  0.98  0.45  0.48  0.51   0   1  -2   0     4   0         
    2002 Mariners       0  0.32  1.91 -1.33  1.59  1.03   0   5   2   0    18   0         
    2003 Mariners      -8  0.85  1.44 -1.91  0.57 -0.31   1   6   2   0    40  -1         
    2004 Mariners      -7 -0.66 -0.11 -1.78  0.60 -0.22   1   7   4  -1     3  -2         
    2005 Mariners      -5 -0.77 -0.63 -1.77  0.09 -0.54   1   4   0   1   -12   0         
    2006 Phillies      -3 -0.78 -0.55 -2.47  0.50 -0.51   0   1  -2  -2    -2   0         
         Reds           0 -0.75 -2.87 -0.06 -2.53 -0.85   0   0  -5   1    -4   0         
         TOTALS        -3 -0.77 -1.28 -1.71 -0.45 -0.68   0   1  -7  -1    -6   0         
         TOTALS       -27 -0.07  0.40 -1.54  0.47 -0.22   2  23  -1  -1    47  -3

  15. #389
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by Ga_Red View Post
    sorry guys, I should have been clearer,
    When I wrote *starter* I meant to be
    making it clear I was refering to a starting
    pitcher.

    Anyway, I was thinking of Jason Jennings.

    My bet is w/o giving up Dunn, Bailey, Cueto, Votto,
    or Wood, WK gets JJ.
    I'd love to see that happen.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  16. #390
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    Ryan Franklin, for his career, is WELL BELOW a major league average pitcher. WELL BELOW.
    The Emperor has no clothes. I quoted WOY for a reason.


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