Add Tally Number 8.....Deltha O'Neal arrested.

[savafan]

Maybe Andy Furman could chauffeur the players around, I hear he's got some free time.

[Chip R]

I think it would be hilarious if they signed an ADVERTISING contract with a limousine company or car service. Bengals appear in the ads for no payment and the Bengals organization, in turn, does not have to pay for the limousine services. And then the fliptards in Cincinnati who drive drunk all the time are reminded, maybe, that there is an option for getting home besides driving themselves.

Perhaps not the most politically correct thing in the world, but I'm all for anything that can get even a few drunk drivers off the road.

Not a bad idea but limos aren't a product the public uses a great deal. Cars, yeah. Beer, you bet. But limos are somewhat of a luxury thing. The fliptards who drive drunk aren't going to call a limo service if they decide not to drive. They will either get a taxi or get a friend to go with them. And there's the macho thing that goes into play as well. These guys think they are sober enough to drive drunk. Or they don't feel they are drunk enough. Maybe they feel that their athletic ability makes them less immune to the effects of alcohol. Perhaps they feel if they get nailed, they will be able to talk their way out of the ticket due to who they are (and who's to say that hasn't happened?) Or they don't care.

I'm all for keeping drunks off the road but you can only do so much for these people. Especially the athletes. We don't know what goes on inside the locker room. Perhaps the team was already notified that there would be checkpoints at certain places in the area. You would think they would be made aware of that fact since there have been so many who have had these problems. But perhaps O'Neal either forgot or chose to ignore that fact. And that's basically what I'm saying here. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink - so to speak.

[vaticanplum]

Well, a car service then. they have those here, right? Just a little more expensive than cabs.

I agree with you to an extent, Chip. but it's becoming pretty obvious that the Bengals have a problem widespread through much of the team, and it doesn't appear to be solving itself. There may well be something wrong with the culture of that team, with a mentality being thrown about that the players are not beholden to anyone but themselves. I think that the organization stepping in at some point is warranted and respectable. I'm not sure they're quite at that point yet, but they're close. It's not unheard of for businesses to provide transportation and education for these things to their employees, not at all.

Adults making bad decisions are ALWAYS responsible for their actions. Murder, drunk driving, abuse, drugs, everything. and they should be punished. Should that always be the end of it? A slap on the wrist (or a more severe punishment, depending) and that's it, you're a grown-up so anything you have to learn you're going to do it on your own? Sometimes education is helpful and provides prevention, and when an entire organization appears to have a problem, I see nothing wrong with the organization stepping in. What does that hurt?

[Chip R]

I agree but we don't know to what extent the Bengals and/or the NFL has stepped in and tried to educate these players. We know that Odell Thurman was suspended for the year for his problem. We know Chris Henry was suspended a couple of games for one of his problems and seems to have skated on his legal problems. Perhaps the Bengals have done nothing to let these players know that they shouldn't break the law. Perhaps they have done everythng in their power. We don't know for sure. You would think that with all the arrests that they would beg and plead with the players not to drink and drive or not to carry firearms - although that seems to be legal in Cincinnati if you have a permit. But what I'm trying to say is that in the end, no matter how much you educate them, no matter how much you warn them, no matter how much you threaten them they are going to do what they want just like any adult. Now there should be consequences for their actions but that's anther story.

And it's not just drunk driving that's the problem either. If you have a limo or car service for them, it isn't going to stop them from getting arrested for domestic abuse or something else. They could be chauffered to a club and have too much to drink and get into a fight or something. Maybe one of the posse gets out of control and the player steps in and the cops come and the player is arrested. Perhaps he didn't do anything wrong but he still was arrested.

Is this a problem because of a lack of education or is it a behavioral problem? If it's the former, that's easy enough to fix. But if it's the latter, that's a little tougher.

[vaticanplum]

I agree but we don't know to what extent the Bengals and/or the NFL has stepped in and tried to educate these players. We know that Odell Thurman was suspended for the year for his problem. We know Chris Henry was suspended a couple of games for one of his problems and seems to have skated on his legal problems. Perhaps the Bengals have done nothing to let these players know that they shouldn't break the law. Perhaps they have done everythng in their power. We don't know for sure. You would think that with all the arrests that they would beg and plead with the players not to drink and drive or not to carry firearms - although that seems to be legal in Cincinnati if you have a permit. But what I'm trying to say is that in the end, no matter how much you educate them, no matter how much you warn them, no matter how much you threaten them they are going to do what they want just like any adult. Now there should be consequences for their actions but that's anther story.

And it's not just drunk driving that's the problem either. If you have a limo or car service for them, it isn't going to stop them from getting arrested for domestic abuse or something else. They could be chauffered to a club and have too much to drink and get into a fight or something. Maybe one of the posse gets out of control and the player steps in and the cops come and the player is arrested. Perhaps he didn't do anything wrong but he still was arrested.

Well no, we don't know what the Bengals or the NFL have done. Isn't that we why we're discussing the possibilities

As for the other possibilites you mention, well, domestic abuse isn't currently the widespread problem on this team. If I'm a counselor for a person who has a drug problem, I address the drug problem. I don't put him in a spousal abuse program. You look at a problem, you try to pinpoint it and find the solution. You don't address all the problems of the world at once.

Is this a problem because of a lack of education or is it a behavioral problem? If it's the former, that's easy enough to fix. But if it's the latter, that's a little tougher.

Of course. But education can't hurt either of these things, it can only help both. Because one is harder than the other, does that mean it should not be tried?

Look, all I'm saying is that this appears to be a problem consistent throughout the organization, and given the very public nature of the profession and the face that it directly affects a competitive team's ability on the field (ie. their ability goes down if a bunch of their players aren't permitted to play), it would not be out of line at this point for the Bengals to step in and address it from an organizational standpoint rather than dealing with consequences on a case-by-case basis. yes, maybe they already have. Normally I feel that adults make these decisions on their own and suffer the consequences on their own. But when the problem becomes widespread, preventative measures rather than punishing ones alone can be called for. Especially since this is a problem where people could get seriously hurt as a result.

[Chip R]

Well no, we don't know what the Bengals or the NFL have done. Isn't that we why we're discussing the possibilities

Well, considering that every time this happens, after people blame the player they blame the organization for not doing enough to keep these players from being arrested. Remember when Freel was arrested for DUI? I believe he did a program with MLB and/or the Reds about the dangers of alcohol abuse. That was great but it didn't stop him from getting arrested again after getting into a bar fight in Florida during the offseason when he was drinking. He didn't get a DUI so that was good but he got arrested for something that happened when he was drinking and that's not good and it's a behavioral problem.

As for the other possibilites you mention, well, domestic abuse isn't currently the widespread problem on this team. If I'm a counselor for a person who has a drug problem, I address the drug problem. I don't put him in a spousal abuse program. You look at a problem, you try to pinpoint it and find the solution. You don't address all the problems of the world at once.

That's terrific but we are not just talking about DUI arrests - although that does seem prevalent. We are talking about a football team who has had 8 of its players arrested in the past year. Some were for DUI, others were for different things. Tonight or tomorrow or next week someone may get arrested for assault or domestic abuse or drugs or solicitation or stealing a car or, yes, even DUI again. If they can get rid of the DUIs, that's fantastic. But you might have other problems. I'll bet anyone on here that Chris Henry gets in some kind of legal trouble within the next year. I hope not. I hope he's learned his lesson and becomes a model citizen from here on out. But guys like him don't usually change no matter how much you educate them. That's a behavioral problem.

Of course. But education can't hurt either of these things, it can only help both. Because one is harder than the other, does that mean it should not be tried?

Look, all I'm saying is that this appears to be a problem consistent throughout the organization, and given the very public nature of the profession and the face that it directly affects a competitive team's ability on the field (ie. their ability goes down if a bunch of their players aren't permitted to play), it would not be out of line at this point for the Bengals to step in and address it from an organizational standpoint rather than dealing with consequences on a case-by-case basis. yes, maybe they already have. Normally I feel that adults make these decisions on their own and suffer the consequences on their own. But when the problem becomes widespread, preventative measures rather than punishing ones alone can be called for. Especially since this is a problem where people could get seriously hurt as a result.

I never said education shouldn't be tried. It should. Any idea should be tried if it has some hope of working. But you are just focused on the DUIs and while that's a prevalent problem, it's not the only problem. You may fix one problem but another one may crop up. If the Bengals are serious about solving - or at least lessening - these problem, they have to figure out why they are happening. Maybe the Bengals aren't serious. Yeah, it's a PR blow but it's not as bad as being a perennial loser was. Some say you need those certain "type" of players in there to win and you can educate these guys about being model citizens and if it works, great. But if education doesn't work, then it's a behavioral problem.