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Thread: Who are we to judge pitching salaries?

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    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Who are we to judge pitching salaries?

    You know what cracks me up? On all the RZ threads related to pitching salaries, posters shred the FOs offering all this money.

    Meche, that contract is crazy.
    Eaton, are you kidding me?
    Marquis, that's nuts.
    Lilly, his contract is outrageous.
    Ditto Padilla.

    Does anyone realize that this is now the market? If there are one or two contracts like this, then fire away. But the era of the high priced pitcher is here. Revenue streams are like never before and teams (most of them, at least ) are choosing to spend their new found fortunes in pitching. Can you blame them? When gas prices skyrocketed across the US, was anyone holding out for lower prices, saying "The next station will be lower, that guy is insane wanting $3 per gallon!" That is how baseball is nowadays. Pretty soon, the pitching staff will be stranded on the side of the road and WK will be walking to the Bowden gas station with an empty can and a fist full of prospects.

    There is also a lot of popularity of the "Wait until you see how that contract looks in a few years!" post. Who's to say that Bob (or the owner of the year in 2009) is going to take advantage of those contracts? What if we're sitting here in a few years saying "Wow, I can't believe we just signed Weathers again" or "Eaton would have been better....3 years ago."

    For all of the ridicule taking place on the contracts being signed, I am stunned that very few of the fans on here aren't abusing this staff.

    1) Harang: Legit ace in the making

    2) Arroyo: Very good year last year, but before he is anointed we should hope there is no regression to the proverbial mean in '07.

    3) Milton: Does anything need to be said? Got his ERA down a run and a quarter...but still over 5 in 2006.

    4) Lohse: Not looking good. Not sure why everyone is feeling comfy with this guy. ERA over 7 when acquired last season. ERA over 4.50 in the NL. I have a bad feeling about this one, especially when we see how much WK has to pay in arbitration. I really hope WK doesn't lock him up for a few before the arb hearing. That would make me nauseous.

    5) Mr. X: Could be good, but probably going to be bad. Not much on the mkt. If you ask me, I have a feeling that Homer is in Cincy no later than May 15th.

    Is anyone happy here? Especially with the state of the lineup? There are a lot of "WK will do something" posts, but how can we be sure? Because he stole Arroyo last season? Don't hold your breath on another of those acquisitions, because there isn't much more to give up without decimating the lineup.

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    Re: Who are we to judge pitching salaries?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    You know what cracks me up? On all the RZ threads related to pitching salaries, posters shred the FOs offering all this money.

    Meche, that contract is crazy.
    Eaton, are you kidding me?
    Marquis, that's nuts.
    Lilly, his contract is outrageous.
    Ditto Padilla.

    Does anyone realize that this is now the market? If there are one or two contracts like this, then fire away. But the era of the high priced pitcher is here. Revenue streams are like never before and teams (most of them, at least ) are choosing to spend their new found fortunes in pitching. Can you blame them? When gas prices skyrocketed across the US, was anyone holding out for lower prices, saying "The next station will be lower, that guy is insane wanting $3 per gallon!" That is how baseball is nowadays. Pretty soon, the pitching staff will be stranded on the side of the road and WK will be walking to the Bowden gas station with an empty can and a fist full of prospects.

    There is also a lot of popularity of the "Wait until you see how that contract looks in a few years!" post. Who's to say that Bob (or the owner of the year in 2009) is going to take advantage of those contracts? What if we're sitting here in a few years saying "Wow, I can't believe we just signed Weathers again" or "Eaton would have been better....3 years ago."

    For all of the ridicule taking place on the contracts being signed, I am stunned that very few of the fans on here aren't abusing this staff.

    1) Harang: Legit ace in the making

    2) Arroyo: Very good year last year, but before he is anointed we should hope there is no regression to the proverbial mean in '07.

    3) Milton: Does anything need to be said? Got his ERA down a run and a quarter...but still over 5 in 2006.

    4) Lohse: Not looking good. Not sure why everyone is feeling comfy with this guy. ERA over 7 when acquired last season. ERA over 4.50 in the NL. I have a bad feeling about this one, especially when we see how much WK has to pay in arbitration. I really hope WK doesn't lock him up for a few before the arb hearing. That would make me nauseous.

    5) Mr. X: Could be good, but probably going to be bad. Not much on the mkt. If you ask me, I have a feeling that Homer is in Cincy no later than May 15th.

    Is anyone happy here? Especially with the state of the lineup? There are a lot of "WK will do something" posts, but how can we be sure? Because he stole Arroyo last season? Don't hold your breath on another of those acquisitions, because there isn't much more to give up without decimating the lineup.

    There's no question that Krivsky's in a hell of a corner of his own creating. It's why I want the FO to "go for it." Because when I think of Krivsky trying to rebuild this club, my blood turns to ice. Regardless, we fans are just going to have to wait around for Castellini to get frustrated with his nuttiness/learning on the job and hire someone else. I'm going to guess that John Allen won't have his ear the next time, though. So that's good.

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    Member Jpup's Avatar
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    Re: Who are we to judge pitching salaries?

    The Reds just aren't going to spend 10+ million on one of the available FA starters. Milton taught them a valuable lesson. Who in the world is out there that you would want that the Reds could get? Would you like Jeff Weaver for about 12 million? Not me.
    "My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton

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    Re: Who are we to judge pitching salaries?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    5) Mr. X: Could be good, but probably going to be bad. Not much on the mkt. If you ask me, I have a feeling that Homer is in Cincy no later than May 15th.

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    Miami Redhawks Redhook's Avatar
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    Re: Who are we to judge pitching salaries?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    You know what cracks me up? On all the RZ threads related to pitching salaries, posters shred the FOs offering all this money.

    Meche, that contract is crazy.
    Eaton, are you kidding me?
    Marquis, that's nuts.
    Lilly, his contract is outrageous.
    Ditto Padilla.

    Does anyone realize that this is now the market? If there are one or two contracts like this, then fire away. But the era of the high priced pitcher is here. Revenue streams are like never before and teams (most of them, at least ) are choosing to spend their new found fortunes in pitching. Can you blame them? When gas prices skyrocketed across the US, was anyone holding out for lower prices, saying "The next station will be lower, that guy is insane wanting $3 per gallon!" That is how baseball is nowadays. Pretty soon, the pitching staff will be stranded on the side of the road and WK will be walking to the Bowden gas station with an empty can and a fist full of prospects.

    There is also a lot of popularity of the "Wait until you see how that contract looks in a few years!" post. Who's to say that Bob (or the owner of the year in 2009) is going to take advantage of those contracts? What if we're sitting here in a few years saying "Wow, I can't believe we just signed Weathers again" or "Eaton would have been better....3 years ago."

    For all of the ridicule taking place on the contracts being signed, I am stunned that very few of the fans on here aren't abusing this staff.

    1) Harang: Legit ace in the making

    2) Arroyo: Very good year last year, but before he is anointed we should hope there is no regression to the proverbial mean in '07.

    3) Milton: Does anything need to be said? Got his ERA down a run and a quarter...but still over 5 in 2006.

    4) Lohse: Not looking good. Not sure why everyone is feeling comfy with this guy. ERA over 7 when acquired last season. ERA over 4.50 in the NL. I have a bad feeling about this one, especially when we see how much WK has to pay in arbitration. I really hope WK doesn't lock him up for a few before the arb hearing. That would make me nauseous.

    5) Mr. X: Could be good, but probably going to be bad. Not much on the mkt. If you ask me, I have a feeling that Homer is in Cincy no later than May 15th.

    Is anyone happy here? Especially with the state of the lineup? There are a lot of "WK will do something" posts, but how can we be sure? Because he stole Arroyo last season? Don't hold your breath on another of those acquisitions, because there isn't much more to give up without decimating the lineup.
    I thought he already took care of that in July.

    Somehow WK has to get a legit #3 or better for this team to have any chance this year. Even then, we still might not have enough hitting, especially when you factor in the injuries that will inevitably come. However, getting one more good pitcher and locking him along with Harang for multiple years could do wonders for 2008-2010. IMO, 2007 is going to be very painful, but I'm very optimistic after next year.
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    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Who are we to judge pitching salaries?

    This is a good point about this being the new market. Holding out with the idea that there will be some big correction is probably not smart. However, I think we need to be careful. When I see gas at 3 bucks a gallon, I don't say "oh well" and pull out my credit card. I take a step back and ask "why am I buying gasoline and given that, is it worth 3 bucks a gallon to me?". Maybe I can take public transportation. Maybe there's alternate fuel systems. Maybe I just be extra judicious with my use of it. Or maybe I just pony up the cash and go on my merry way. You get the idea.

    I'm not saying we only need to carry 8 pitchers. But we don't have to pay these market prices for FA pitching. We can trade for pitching. We can develop our own. We can decide that, relative to contributions towards winning baseball, offense is more bang for the buck. Maybe it isn't, I don't know. But I do know that the answer isn't necessarily going out and giving 10 million bucks to a player just because everybody else is.

    Take that step back, evaluate all your costs and all the pieces necessary to build a winning team. Then decide in signing pitchers in free agency is the best way to accomplish that.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 12-10-2006 at 10:21 PM.
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    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Who are we to judge pitching salaries?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jpup View Post
    The Reds just aren't going to spend 10+ million on one of the available FA starters. Milton taught them a valuable lesson. Who in the world is out there that you would want that the Reds could get? Would you like Jeff Weaver for about 12 million? Not me.
    Without being able to do that, then this team is cooked until further notice without an overhaul. I am still waiting for the promises of making this team into a contender to come true. Without spending money on pitching (whether it is completely overpaying for Zito or getting a second tier pitcher) then we can forget about the postseason. 2006 was a fluke.

    And your response, while reasonable and legit, is the reason for the thread. We can sit here and laugh at how much people will sign Suppan and Weaver for but, money aside, would you have issues with them pitching in Cincy this year? Or do you think WK will get someone better without damaging the franchise in some way?

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    Re: Who are we to judge pitching salaries?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    This is a good point about this being the new market. However, I think we need to be careful of buying in completely. When I see gas at 3 bucks a gallon, I don't say "oh well" and pull out my credit card. I take a step back and ask "why am I buying gasoline?". Maybe I can take public transportation. Maybe there's alternate fuel systems. You get the idea.

    I'm not saying we only need to carry 8 pitchers. But we don't have to pay these market prices for FA pitching. We can trade for pitching. We can develop our own. We can decide that, relative to contributions towards winning baseball, offense is more bang for you buck. Maybe it isn't. I don't know. But I do know that the answer isn't necessarily going out and giving 10 million bucks to a player just because everybody else is.

    Take that step back, evaluate all your costs and all the pieces necessary to build a winning team. Then decide in signing pitchers in free agency is what you need to do to accomplish that.
    I completely agree, 100%. But when we are the only ones on the bus while everyone else is filling up their Porsches with premium, I kind of get worried about the future of this franchise.

    This is why I have been so vocal about the 2006 draft and my fears of the 2007 draft. Pitching should be first and foremost on WK's list. Load up. Drafting pitchers is extremely risky...that's why you have to draft a lot of them. And if you have 3 or 4 legit ones in the minors...trade your riskiest pitcher (injury, lowest ceiling, etc) for some hitting. Last year killed me.

  10. #9
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: Who are we to judge pitching salaries?

    I don't have an iota of problem with giving out a big contract LTC contact(s). (or a big short-term contract for that matter). I'd like to see Harrang locked up, for example. You are right, the mere fact that the money is being spent means the market price of pitching is going up.

    But I do have a problem jumping into a stupid LTC. A stupid LTC now is just as bad for the orginization as the stupid Milton LTC was a couple of years ago. As RMR said, we have to use caution and make smart moves to avoid getting locked into something that we'll be bemoning in 3 years. And it's easy to make mistakes (1) making rash moves (2) trying to keep up with the jones.

    I just don't buy the idea that spending a bunch of money means we'll magically be competitive. Spending money wisely will, however.
    Last edited by Ltlabner; 12-10-2006 at 10:25 PM.
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    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

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    Re: Who are we to judge pitching salaries?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    I just don't buy the idea that spending a bunch of money means we'll magically be competitive. Spending money wisely will, however.
    That isn't the point of the post. The point is that there are a lot of teams dropping millions on pitching. This is not one of them. Spending $10 mil per year on Lilly might be dumb, but he will make their team better. WK isn't improving the rotation at all, whether by over or under spending. And don't say "Wait, there are 4 months until opening day." I'd be willing to wager that this pitching staff will still be horror movie quality by April.

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    Re: Who are we to judge pitching salaries?

    Maybe it's too early to judge the salaries, but it isn't too early to judge the quality of some of the pitchers receiving these salaries. When less-than-mediocre players like Meche receive these kinds of contracts, something is amiss. It's not hard to see that some teams are doing things just so they won't be left out. It's Milton redux.

    And the Reds, btw, aren't the only ones holding back. Like I said on the thread about Fay's article, whether or not they're behaving wisely depends on what they do between now and the start of the season. But spending money on the best of several bad options is never behaving wisely, no matter the market.

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    Re: Who are we to judge pitching salaries?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    That isn't the point of the post. The point is that there are a lot of teams dropping millions on pitching.
    True, but they are dropping those millions on mediocre to average pitching, and in my opinion the majority of those pitchers are not of the quality to say they have already made their team better.

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    Re: Who are we to judge pitching salaries?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Without being able to do that, then this team is cooked until further notice without an overhaul. I am still waiting for the promises of making this team into a contender to come true. Without spending money on pitching (whether it is completely overpaying for Zito or getting a second tier pitcher) then we can forget about the postseason. 2006 was a fluke.

    And your response, while reasonable and legit, is the reason for the thread. We can sit here and laugh at how much people will sign Suppan and Weaver for but, money aside, would you have issues with them pitching in Cincy this year? Or do you think WK will get someone better without damaging the franchise in some way?
    I would have issues with them pitching in Cincinnati if the Reds are going to pay them what they are expected to get. Moves like that can and will cripple the organization for many years. You can't just throw the money aside. If money wasn't an object then they would be able to go throw it at guys much better than Suppan or Weaver. Do I think that Krivsky will get someone better this year? Well, it might be too early to say, but no I wouldn't bet on it. The first half of last year was just another mirage and most of us knew that and I am assuming you did too.

    IMO, the best thing for the orgainization would be to trade away about everyone and start from scratch. I would rather seem them acquire some young guys and prospects instead of acting like they can compete. It is just not going to happen. Sure I will cheer like crazy if they do, but it's just not likely. Is Wayne Krivsky the guy for the job? That remains to be seen in my eyes. Those judging him already are a little too impatient IMO. Sure the Kearns trade looks absolutely horrible right now and may always look like that, but we don't really know what Bray is going to turn into or what Majewski will pitch like this season.

    The only way the 2007 Reds make the post season is they make some very, very lucky trades and the rest of the central is just horrible, much like last season. Jeff Weaver and Jeff Suppan are surely not going to get it done. I am more interested in the Reds building a winner that will last for a decade, not just 1 season. Sure I would love for them to sign Zito, but the reality is that he's not available to Reds.
    "My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton

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    Re: Who are we to judge pitching salaries?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jpup View Post
    IMO, the best thing for the orgainization would be to trade away about everyone and start from scratch. I would rather seem them acquire some young guys and prospects instead of acting like they can compete. It is just not going to happen. Sure I will cheer like crazy if they do, but it's just not likely. Is Wayne Krivsky the guy for the job? That remains to be seen in my eyes. Those judging him already are a little too impatient IMO. Sure the Kearns trade looks absolutely horrible right now and may always look like that, but we don't really know what Bray is going to turn into or what Majewski will pitch like this season.
    AMEN! Burn it to the ground and use the first 5 picks on starters this June. This team will get better faster that way than straddling the fence the way they are now.

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    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: Who are we to judge pitching salaries?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    That isn't the point of the post. The point is that there are a lot of teams dropping millions on pitching. This is not one of them. Spending $10 mil per year on Lilly might be dumb, but he will make their team better. WK isn't improving the rotation at all, whether by over or under spending. And don't say "Wait, there are 4 months until opening day." I'd be willing to wager that this pitching staff will still be horror movie quality by April.
    I think it's arguable how much Ted Lilly would "help" the Reds. I know you are talking in general terms, but lets look at Teddy's numbers. Ted Lilly's 936 innings pitched has resulted in 144 homers, 908 hits and 4.60ERA. Loshe (and I'm not real fan of his) has pitcher 971 IP, 135 HR, 1095 hits and 4.86 ERA. Why spend $10 million, and be locked into do so for several years in the future, when you can get nearly the same medicore production for $4m less?

    A mediocre pitcher is still mediocre when his price tag doubles.

    All of the angst over "improving" despite the costs ignores the fact that this is a business with real implications for how money is spent. Fans can stomp their feet and demand action no matter how "dumb" the move might be now. But will those same fans be so forgiving in a few years if we make a bad move and it's a fiasco a year or two down the line? I'd wager not.
    Last edited by Ltlabner; 12-10-2006 at 10:48 PM.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate


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