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Thread: Bill Bray

  1. #16
    Lover of Trivialities Doc. Scott's Avatar
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    Re: Bill Bray

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    Ryan Wagner had very good stuff. Bill Bray would be lucky to have half of Wagner's stuff.
    Yeah, but Wagner would likely be lucky to have half of Bray's everything else. And I say that assuming that Bill's average across the board in every other characteristic (aside from pure stuff) that makes a pitcher.
    Last edited by Doc. Scott; 12-14-2006 at 12:07 PM.

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  3. #17
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Bill Bray

    Wagner had one great pitch, the slider. But once he'd been around the league, hitters started laying off and letting it bounce in for a ball. It was unhittable, but he couldn't throw it for strikes unless the hitters swung.

    So, he's in the hole 1-0 and 2-0 now and has to come in with a mediocre fastball, which was summarily pounded.

    Once the league figured him out and started laying off the slider, he was toast.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
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  4. #18
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Bill Bray

    Here's my take on Bray: Basically as his slider goes so too does his fortunes. If I had to hit against him, i'd make him prove he can throw his slider for a strike consistently. Right now a team with great plate discipline could give him alot of trouble. I don't think he is closer material in '07 but he could develop into one.

  5. #19
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    Re: Bill Bray

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Clark View Post
    Folks I could be Waaaay off base here. Cormier could get traded at 4:00 to the Mariners for all I know. This is just how I see the scenario playing out.



    Cormier Weathers and Stanton to the Mariners for...Half their starting rotation.


    I think Seatle is dumb enough to do that lately...

  6. #20
    Passion for the game Team Clark's Avatar
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    Re: Bill Bray

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodave View Post
    Cormier Weathers and Stanton to the Mariners for...Half their starting rotation.


    I think Seatle is dumb enough to do that lately...
    No kidding. I hear ya on that.

    I'd keep Weathers and give them Coffey.
    It's absolutely pathetic that people can't have an opinion from actually watching games and supplementing that with stats. If you voice an opinion that doesn't fit into a black/white box you will get completely misrepresented and basically called a tobacco chewing traditionalist...
    Cedric 3/24/08

  7. #21
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    Re: Bill Bray

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Here's my take on Bray: Basically as his slider goes so too does his fortunes. If I had to hit against him, i'd make him prove he can throw his slider for a strike consistently. Right now a team with great plate discipline could give him alot of trouble. I don't think he is closer material in '07 but he could develop into one.
    Steel (IIRC) made an interesting observation about pitchers who are unable to throw their out pitch for a strike. I don't remember all of the intricacies of the discussion, but the gross and scope of it is that it's a bad problem to have if you're a pitcher. And the prognosis isn't usually good.

  8. #22
    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: Bill Bray

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Clark View Post
    I'd keep Weathers and give them Coffey.
    How come?

    Coffey was probably the better pitcher last season, plus he should be on the upswing, while Weathers is likely to start declining in the next 2 seasons.

    Also, the Reds have Coffey under control for the next 5 seasons (most of which will require a very minimal salary), while Weathers of course has the 2 year contract at a fair market rate, and after that his career will be nearing an end.

    Do you think Coffey is going to decline rapidly (and if so, why?), and that it would be best to sell him while his value is at a high point?

  9. #23
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    Re: Bill Bray

    Quote Originally Posted by Austin Kearns View Post
    How come?

    Coffey was probably the better pitcher last season, plus he should be on the upswing, while Weathers is likely to start declining in the next 2 seasons.

    Also, the Reds have Coffey under control for the next 5 seasons (most of which will require a very minimal salary), while Weathers of course has the 2 year contract at a fair market rate, and after that his career will be nearing an end.

    Do you think Coffey is going to decline rapidly (and if so, why?), and that it would be best to sell him while his value is at a high point?
    Coffey was definitely--not probably--the better pitcher last year.

  10. #24
    Passion for the game Team Clark's Avatar
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    Re: Bill Bray

    Quote Originally Posted by Austin Kearns View Post
    How come?

    Coffey was probably the better pitcher last season, plus he should be on the upswing, while Weathers is likely to start declining in the next 2 seasons.

    Also, the Reds have Coffey under control for the next 5 seasons (most of which will require a very minimal salary), while Weathers of course has the 2 year contract at a fair market rate, and after that his career will be nearing an end.

    Do you think Coffey is going to decline rapidly (and if so, why?), and that it would be best to sell him while his value is at a high point?
    Just sparking debate on a slow day. I like Coffey too. He had his ups and downs last year but he learned quite a bit. He was an ALL Star mention as late as Mid June. That's probably more than most expected out of him. He's still very predictable, however, you can be that way as long as your "stuff" is filthy. He's progressing toward that quickly. I do wish he'd shave that Ugly goatee. The Red/Orange Goat is not intimidating.

    I hope he has a hot start this year like he did last.
    It's absolutely pathetic that people can't have an opinion from actually watching games and supplementing that with stats. If you voice an opinion that doesn't fit into a black/white box you will get completely misrepresented and basically called a tobacco chewing traditionalist...
    Cedric 3/24/08

  11. #25
    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: Bill Bray

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    Steel (IIRC) made an interesting observation about pitchers who are unable to throw their out pitch for a strike. I don't remember all of the intricacies of the discussion, but the gross and scope of it is that it's a bad problem to have if you're a pitcher. And the prognosis isn't usually good.
    Seems to be the Rob Dibble/Brad Lidge model. They stop getting their sliders over and MLB hitters can eventually catch up to their heat.

    Pay attention to the open sky

  12. #26
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Bill Bray

    If Bray's ever going to be a closer then he probably needs to flash that ability in 2007. I'm not saying he has to be the Reds' closer, just that he'll need to demonstrate those hard-to-hit, swing-and-miss skills in the near term. Otherwise he's probably never going to be more than a middle reliever sort, perhaps a good one, but not the sort of fellow you really want closing.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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  13. #27
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Bill Bray

    Originally posted by Falls City Beer
    Steel (IIRC) made an interesting observation about pitchers who are unable to throw their out pitch for a strike. I don't remember all of the intricacies of the discussion, but the gross and scope of it is that it's a bad problem to have if you're a pitcher. And the prognosis isn't usually good.
    I'm assuming this is exactly why TC advocates giving him some time in AAA. To get that slider tightened up among other things. One thing I do like about him is that he seems to be very aggressive in nature, he comes right after you with his stuff which is a trait that he shares with Guardado. Tighten up that Slider Billy and be a little less predictable with your locations and walaa Closer material IMHO.
    Last edited by Mario-Rijo; 12-14-2006 at 05:08 PM.
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  14. #28
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    Re: Bill Bray

    Seems to be the Rob Dibble/Brad Lidge model. They stop getting their sliders over and MLB hitters can eventually catch up to their heat.
    And, among the less fearsome, Ryan Wagner.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  15. #29
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Bill Bray

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Tucker View Post
    Seems to be the Rob Dibble/Brad Lidge model. They stop getting their sliders over and MLB hitters can eventually catch up to their heat.
    Though it should be noted that, seemingly, throwing all those sliders robbed movement and heat from those pitchers' fastballs as well. The combo of slider you can't place and what used to be your B heater is where you really invite trouble.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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  16. #30
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    Re: Bill Bray

    I agree with TC that Bill needs to start the year in AAA. I think he was rushed the Majors by his last GM, before he was completely developed. Yes he is good enough to get Major Leagers out now, but is that all we want? If you want a pitcher to reach his full potential, they must spend the time in the minors really tighting things up. I think that is why Wayne is so patient with Baliey, he needs to tight things up. Much better to try to tighten things up in AAA than against Pujols.

    That is something Bowden never understood.


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