Last edited by Doc. Scott; 12-14-2006 at 12:07 PM.
Wagner had one great pitch, the slider. But once he'd been around the league, hitters started laying off and letting it bounce in for a ball. It was unhittable, but he couldn't throw it for strikes unless the hitters swung.
So, he's in the hole 1-0 and 2-0 now and has to come in with a mediocre fastball, which was summarily pounded.
Once the league figured him out and started laying off the slider, he was toast.
We'll go down in history as the first society that wouldn't save itself because it wasn't cost effective ~ Kurt Vonnegut
Here's my take on Bray: Basically as his slider goes so too does his fortunes. If I had to hit against him, i'd make him prove he can throw his slider for a strike consistently. Right now a team with great plate discipline could give him alot of trouble. I don't think he is closer material in '07 but he could develop into one.
Cedric 3/24/08It's absolutely pathetic that people can't have an opinion from actually watching games and supplementing that with stats. If you voice an opinion that doesn't fit into a black/white box you will get completely misrepresented and basically called a tobacco chewing traditionalist...
Steel (IIRC) made an interesting observation about pitchers who are unable to throw their out pitch for a strike. I don't remember all of the intricacies of the discussion, but the gross and scope of it is that it's a bad problem to have if you're a pitcher. And the prognosis isn't usually good.
“And when finally they sense that some position cannot be sustained, they do not re-examine their ideas. Instead, they simply change the subject.” Jamie Galbraith
How come?
Coffey was probably the better pitcher last season, plus he should be on the upswing, while Weathers is likely to start declining in the next 2 seasons.
Also, the Reds have Coffey under control for the next 5 seasons (most of which will require a very minimal salary), while Weathers of course has the 2 year contract at a fair market rate, and after that his career will be nearing an end.
Do you think Coffey is going to decline rapidly (and if so, why?), and that it would be best to sell him while his value is at a high point?
Just sparking debate on a slow day. I like Coffey too. He had his ups and downs last year but he learned quite a bit. He was an ALL Star mention as late as Mid June. That's probably more than most expected out of him. He's still very predictable, however, you can be that way as long as your "stuff" is filthy. He's progressing toward that quickly. I do wish he'd shave that Ugly goatee. The Red/Orange Goat is not intimidating.
I hope he has a hot start this year like he did last.
Cedric 3/24/08It's absolutely pathetic that people can't have an opinion from actually watching games and supplementing that with stats. If you voice an opinion that doesn't fit into a black/white box you will get completely misrepresented and basically called a tobacco chewing traditionalist...
If Bray's ever going to be a closer then he probably needs to flash that ability in 2007. I'm not saying he has to be the Reds' closer, just that he'll need to demonstrate those hard-to-hit, swing-and-miss skills in the near term. Otherwise he's probably never going to be more than a middle reliever sort, perhaps a good one, but not the sort of fellow you really want closing.
I'm not a system player. I am a system.
I'm assuming this is exactly why TC advocates giving him some time in AAA. To get that slider tightened up among other things. One thing I do like about him is that he seems to be very aggressive in nature, he comes right after you with his stuff which is a trait that he shares with Guardado. Tighten up that Slider Billy and be a little less predictable with your locations and walaa Closer material IMHO.Originally posted by Falls City Beer
Steel (IIRC) made an interesting observation about pitchers who are unable to throw their out pitch for a strike. I don't remember all of the intricacies of the discussion, but the gross and scope of it is that it's a bad problem to have if you're a pitcher. And the prognosis isn't usually good.
Last edited by Mario-Rijo; 12-14-2006 at 05:08 PM.
"You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."
--Woody Hayes
And, among the less fearsome, Ryan Wagner.Seems to be the Rob Dibble/Brad Lidge model. They stop getting their sliders over and MLB hitters can eventually catch up to their heat.
I'm not a system player. I am a system.
I agree with TC that Bill needs to start the year in AAA. I think he was rushed the Majors by his last GM, before he was completely developed. Yes he is good enough to get Major Leagers out now, but is that all we want? If you want a pitcher to reach his full potential, they must spend the time in the minors really tighting things up. I think that is why Wayne is so patient with Baliey, he needs to tight things up. Much better to try to tighten things up in AAA than against Pujols.
That is something Bowden never understood.
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