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Thread: Is a veteran starter worth Joey Votto to you?

  1. #1
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    Is a veteran starter worth Joey Votto to you?

    A team comes to the Reds looking to deal a veteran pitcher. Think someone like a Jon Lieber - someone who isn't a strikeout pitcher but someone who would fit GABP with his style. For the sake of argument, let's say he's signed through 2007 at $6 million with a mutual option for 2008 at $7.5 million.

    They already have five other starters they can go with and they want a good young first base prospect who will be Major League ready shortly since they have an aging first sacker or someone whose contract is up after 2007. They call up the Reds and offer their veteran starter for Joey Votto.

    Do you agree to the deal straight up?

    Do you only make the deal if they pay some salary?

    If they agree to pay some salary in exchange for adding a fringy pitching prospect to the deal, does that still work?

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    Member Spitball's Avatar
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    Re: Is a veteran starter worth Joey Votto to you?

    No question, I'd trade a minor league first baseman like Votto for a veteran starter in a fraction of a nano-second.
    "I am your child from the future. I'm sorry I didn't tell you this earlier." - Dylan Easton

  4. #3
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Is a veteran starter worth Joey Votto to you?

    A cheap prospect bat or an expensive pitch-to-contact starter?

    I'll take the prospect and hope for a better deal in the future.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  5. #4
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    Re: Is a veteran starter worth Joey Votto to you?

    No question, I would NOT do this type of deal. The term "veteran" means nothing to me to start with. I could name hundreds of veteran pitchers, and I'd rather have younger pitchers with the same numbers.

    I also have a problem calling Votto a minor league 1B. Yes he is in the minors, but Bobby Mosby is also a minor league 1B. Votto is a legit prospect that was built to play in GABP. His value for this team I believe is the most underrated. He is a guy that can hit 30 HR's repeatedly for this team in the coming years. Don't waste giving him up for a veteran that won't turn this team around, won't get them to the playoffs, won't have a long term effect to making this team better.

    Absolutely, NO DEAL.

  6. #5
    GO XAVIER! toledodan's Avatar
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    Re: Is a veteran starter worth Joey Votto to you?

    no way esp. for a jon lieber type pitcher. the only way i move votto is if we're in the playoff race and the team was offered a #2 or #3 starter that could put us over(and keep). no way i would move votto during the winter for a border line #4 starter.
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  7. #6
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    Re: Is a veteran starter worth Joey Votto to you?

    It depends on the pitcher really... Im big on Votto but if theres a guy who can solidify the 3 spot for the next 3 years I'd be willing to part with Votto. We can fill 1B another way in the future (Dunn to 1B potentially) It cant be a guy who is old, it has to be a guy with a future beyond the next 3 years... so potentially if it works out, it could be a long term investment

  8. #7
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Is a veteran starter worth Joey Votto to you?

    I wouldn't do this deal. There are certainly pitchers out there that I would trade Votto for but not an aging on the downside vet like Lieber. I would be happy to take Leiber off Philly's hands, pay his salary and give them a prospect, but not Votto, Bailey or Bruce. He isn't worth that. After those three there is a big drop in terms of impact and readiness.

    I also would like to address the general attitude that offensive 1B are easy to replace. This is simply not true. The typical first basemen is an offensive force in most line-ups. This has not been the case for the Reds in the last 25 to 30 years (except for a couple of Casey's better seasons). While I agree that you can get offensive contributors fairly cheaply at 1B (Dreissen, Hatteberg, Casey in his other years), getting a real force there isn't easy.

    When you think about the current state of the Reds, much of it can be traced to the lack of having a typical 1B on offense. The lack of production at 1B has made a necessity of getting above average production at other positions that are more critical on defense. The Reds were lucky to have Barry Larkin for so many years whose great production at SS compensated for much of what was lacking at 1B. The Reds were similarly aided in CF with Eric Davis and Ken Griffey Jr (when healthy). But now players who can play the premium defensive positions AND be productive on offense are simply not there to compensate. The Reds went the route of trying to compensate with Lopez and the current version of Griffey and the team could still be decent offensively with those guys at SS and CF. As we have seen though, the defense has fallen to a level that is below acceptable and when capable defenders are brought in there isn't enough offense to go around. A solid middle of the order 1B would pretty much solve this problem. The pressure wouldn't be there to choose between a good defender at SS or a guy who can hit. A good defender at SS is a necessity IMO. A good producer at 1B goes a long way toward being able to carry one in the line-up.

    I'm not sure Votto is that guy (I think he is). But if he isn't, I can't see the Reds getting a pitcher that we would want for him anyway. If he is, it would certainly make it easier to carry a MI of Phillips and Gonzalez and a guy like Deno in CF. A 1B who projects to be major league productive and cheap for the next few years isn't something that should be given away any more than a decent pitcher should be. Votto is not excess. He is the best hope to fill what has been a 30 year hole in the Reds organization.

  9. #8
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Is a veteran starter worth Joey Votto to you?

    I agree with mth123. Lieber will be 37 years old in April. If I regarded the Reds as serious World Series contenders in 2007, then maybe I would consider such a trade. Unfortunately, the Reds are probably several seasons away, at best, from any serious shot at a title, so acquring Lieber at the cost of Votto isn't something I would do.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  10. #9
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Is a veteran starter worth Joey Votto to you?

    RedsBaron is right. In the situation the Reds are in now, there is no way that I would trade Votto for a 37 year old Jon Lieber.
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  11. #10
    Member Red Heeler's Avatar
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    Re: Is a veteran starter worth Joey Votto to you?

    Rather than hunting for an old, middle of the road pitcher like Leiber, the Reds should be scanning rosters for second and third year arbitration eligible pitchers who have not yet lived up to expectations.

    There are risks with both scenarios. Maybe the vet starts his downhill slide this year. Maybe the younger guy really isn't going to live up to expectations. However, the payoff is far greater if the young guy finally has his breakout year.

  12. #11
    Member Strikes Out Looking's Avatar
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    Re: Is a veteran starter worth Joey Votto to you?

    I think the Phillies have a pretty decent 1b for the next few years and Votto, even if he's the second coming of Lou Gehrig, would be seen as a downgrade.

    But in response to the question generally--no, I wouldn't trade a grade A prospect for an older "veteran" starting pitcher.
    Win the Division

  13. #12
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    Re: Is a veteran starter worth Joey Votto to you?

    I would not trade Votto for Leiber. I would trade Votto for pitching. Then, I would hand Dunn a 1st basemen's glove & say "Son, this is your future"

  14. #13
    This one's for you Edd Heath's Avatar
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    Re: Is a veteran starter worth Joey Votto to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Heeler View Post
    Rather than hunting for an old, middle of the road pitcher like Leiber, the Reds should be scanning rosters for second and third year arbitration eligible pitchers who have not yet lived up to expectations.
    You might have just described Kyle Lohse.
    Some people play baseball. Baseball plays Jay Bruce.

  15. #14
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    Re: Is a veteran starter worth Joey Votto to you?

    Would not trade Votto, except in a trade for a good, reasonably young pitcher. Would not trade him for someone like Lieber.

  16. #15
    Member ochre's Avatar
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    Re: Is a veteran starter worth Joey Votto to you?

    rings a bit of a Bagwell for Andersen type of deal
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