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View Poll Results: Which would you have rather had on your team?

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  • Concepcion

    75 70.09%
  • Smith

    32 29.91%
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Thread: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

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  1. #1
    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
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    Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Much like the the Jim Rice VS. Dave Parker question, if you were a GM and had the opportunity to choose only one of these guys to play for your team in their prime, which one would you choose? This may be closer and tougher than you think.

    Concepcion's Stats:

    Code:
     Year Ag Tm  Lg  G   AB    R    H   2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB  SO   BA   OBP   SLG   TB   SH  SF IBB HBP GDP 
    +--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
     1970 22 CIN NL 101  265   38   69   6  3   1   19  10  2  23  45  .260  .324  .317   84   3   2   5   3  10
     1971 23 CIN NL 130  327   24   67   4  4   1   20   9  3  18  51  .205  .246  .251   82   8   1   2   0  10
     1972 24 CIN NL 119  378   40   79  13  2   2   29  13  6  32  65  .209  .272  .270  102   5   4   8   2  11
     1973 25 CIN NL  89  328   39   94  18  3   8   46  22  5  21  55  .287  .327  .433  142   2   5   3   1   7 AS
     1974 26 CIN NL 160  594   70  167  25  1  14   82  41  6  44  79  .281  .335  .397  236   5   4  10   6  20 MVP-15
     1975 27 CIN NL 140  507   62  139  23  1   5   49  33  6  39  51  .274  .326  .353  179   6   4   4   2  17 AS
     1976 28 CIN NL 152  576   74  162  28  7   9   69  21 10  49  68  .281  .335  .401  231   4   6  11   1  11 AS
     1977 29 CIN NL 156  572   59  155  26  3   8   64  29  7  46  77  .271  .322  .369  211   6   6   6   0  15 AS
     1978 30 CIN NL 153  565   75  170  33  4   6   67  23 10  51  83  .301  .357  .405  229   3   4   4   1  14 AS
     1979 31 CIN NL 149  590   91  166  25  3  16   84  19  7  64  73  .281  .348  .415  245   6   6   5   0  18 MVP-9,AS
     1980 32 CIN NL 156  622   72  162  31  8   5   77  12  2  37 107  .260  .300  .360  224   2   6   2   1  20 AS
     1981 33 CIN NL 106  421   57  129  28  0   5   67   4  5  37  61  .306  .358  .409  172   2   7   1   1  13 SS,MVP-4,AS
     1982 34 CIN NL 147  572   48  164  25  4   5   53  13  6  45  61  .287  .337  .371  212   2   4   4   0  20 SS,AS
     1983 35 CIN NL 143  528   54  123  22  0   1   47  14  9  56  81  .233  .303  .280  148   2   7   9   0  21
     1984 36 CIN NL 154  531   46  130  26  1   4   58  22  6  52  72  .245  .307  .320  170   8   9   5   0   9
     1985 37 CIN NL 155  560   59  141  19  2   7   48  16 12  50  67  .252  .314  .330  185   3   4   3   3  23
     1986 38 CIN NL  90  311   42   81  13  2   3   30  13  2  26  43  .260  .314  .344  107   5   4   1   0  13
     1987 39 CIN NL 104  279   32   89  15  0   1   33   4  3  28  24  .319  .377  .384  107   1   3   5   0  10
     1988 40 CIN NL  84  197   11   39   9  0   0    8   3  2  18  23  .198  .265  .244   48   1   0   5   0   4
    +--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
     19 Seasons         8723      2326     48      950    109    1186  .267  .322  .357       74  86  93  21 266
                   2488       993      389    101      321    736                       3114



    Smith's Stats:

    Code:
     Year Ag Tm  Lg  G   AB    R    H   2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB  SO   BA   OBP   SLG   TB   SH  SF IBB HBP GDP 
    +--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
     1978 23 SDP NL 159  590   69  152  17  6   1   46  40 12  47  43  .258  .311  .312  184  28   3   0   0  11 RoY-2
     1979 24 SDP NL 156  587   77  124  18  6   0   27  28  7  37  37  .211  .260  .262  154  22   1   5   2  11
     1980 25 SDP NL 158  609   67  140  18  5   0   35  57 15  71  49  .230  .313  .276  168  23   4   1   5   9
     1981 26 SDP NL 110  450   53  100  11  2   0   21  22 12  41  37  .222  .294  .256  115  10   1   1   5   8 AS
     1982 27 STL NL 140  488   58  121  24  1   2   43  25  5  68  32  .248  .339  .314  153   4   5  12   2  10 MVP-13,AS
     1983 28 STL NL 159  552   69  134  30  6   3   50  34  7  64  36  .243  .321  .335  185   7   2   9   1  10 MVP-21,AS
     1984 29 STL NL 124  412   53  106  20  5   1   44  35  7  56  17  .257  .347  .337  139  11   3   5   2   8 AS
     1985 30 STL NL 158  537   70  148  22  3   6   54  31  8  65  27  .276  .355  .361  194   9   2  11   2  13 MVP-18,AS
     1986 31 STL NL 153  514   67  144  19  4   0   54  31  7  79  27  .280  .376  .333  171  11   3  13   2   9 AS
     1987 32 STL NL 158  600  104  182  40  4   0   75  43  9  89  36  .303  .392  .383  230  12   4   3   1   9 SS,MVP-2,AS
     1988 33 STL NL 153  575   80  155  27  1   3   51  57  9  74  43  .270  .350  .336  193  12   7   2   1   7 AS
     1989 34 STL NL 155  593   82  162  30  8   2   50  29  7  55  37  .273  .335  .361  214  11   3   3   2  10 AS
     1990 35 STL NL 143  512   61  130  21  1   1   50  32  6  61  33  .254  .330  .305  156   7  10   4   2   8 AS
     1991 36 STL NL 150  550   96  157  30  3   3   50  35  9  83  36  .285  .380  .367  202   6   1   2   1   8 MVP-20,AS
     1992 37 STL NL 132  518   73  153  20  2   0   31  43  9  59  34  .295  .367  .342  177  12   1   4   0  11 MVP-22,AS
     1993 38 STL NL 141  545   75  157  22  6   1   53  21  8  43  18  .288  .337  .356  194   7   7   1   1  11
     1994 39 STL NL  98  381   51  100  18  3   3   30   6  3  38  26  .262  .326  .349  133  10   4   3   0   3 AS
     1995 40 STL NL  44  156   16   31   5  1   0   11   4  3  17  12  .199  .282  .244   38   5   2   0   2   6 AS
     1996 41 STL NL  82  227   36   64  10  2   2   18   7  5  25   9  .282  .358  .370   84   7   0   0   2   5 AS
    +--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
     19 Seasons         9396      2460     69      793    148     589  .262  .337  .328      214  63  79  33 167
                   2573      1257      402     28      580   1072                       3084




    FWIW, I noticed that as a shortstop, Concepcion's career fielding percentage is better than Smith's.
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!

  2. #2
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Davey.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
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  3. #3
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Ozzie by a long shot.
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  4. #4
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool View Post
    Ozzie by a long shot.
    Yep, he may have been the best defensive player ever.

    BTW, that's no slight on Concepcion. Ozzie's one of the top 10 shortstops in baseball history.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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  5. #5
    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Concepcion is not a hall of famer. Ozzie is.

    I hate Ozzie Smith, but the truth is the truth.
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  6. #6
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    I always thought that Concepcion was a marginal HOF candidate in the same vien as Tony Perez.

    Perez has gotten in, and Davey hasn't even been close. It's clear that, according to the voters, I overvalued Concepcion.

    I'm still a little surprised with how badly he has fared in HOF voting. He alway hit very well for a SS (for his time), and was a perennial gold glove winner. He played in the WS three times, and invented the "hop" throw from the hole in SS for use on artificial turf.

  7. #7
    Do it! TheBurn's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Davey!

    I'm old school...


  8. #8
    Member Marc D's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    If I had to take one in my prime to build around its Ozzie. I like Davey better as a fan but the decision is pretty simple imo.

  9. #9
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Having never seen Davey play in person, I think the problem with Concepcion wasn't the public face of the franchise and his reputation as an all-time great fielder isn't there -- fair or not.

    I think there's some feeling that he was a fielding first SS on some really good teams and that his fieldling, while good, wasn't superlative in the way that Ozzie's was. While they did have a WS appearance, the Cards were usually a mediocre team through his tenure. He was able to shine, to stand out on a team that didn't have many other stars. He was speed and defense on teams that won with pitching, speed, and defense. Meanwhile, Davey was simply part of the crew with other household names like Morgan, Perez, Bench, Rose, Foster, etc.

    In my mind, the question becomes, how much better defensively was Ozzie than Davey? How does Davey stack up historically. Frankly, unless he can be considered one of the all-time great SS defensively, I'm not sure he has a great case for the hall of fame (though I know that's not the question at hand). I think Omar Vizquel is going to find himself in the same boat.

    Personally, I'd take Ozzie.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 01-02-2007 at 01:50 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  10. #10
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Having never seen Davey play in person, I think the problem with Concepcion wasn't the public face of the franchise and his reputation as an all-time great fielder isn't there -- fair or not.

    I think there's some feeling that he was a fielding first SS on some really good teams and that his fieldling, while good, wasn't superlative in the way that Ozzie's was. While they did have a WS appearance, the Cards were usually a mediocre team through his tenure. He was able to shine, to stand out on a team that didn't have many other stars. He was speed and defense on teams that won with pitching, speed, and defense. Meanwhile, Davey was simply part of the crew with other household names like Morgan, Perez, Bench, Rose, Foster, etc.

    In my mind, the question becomes, how much better defensively was Ozzie than Davey? How does Davey stack up historically. Frankly, unless he can be considered one of the all-time great SS defensively, I'm not sure he has a great case for the hall of fame (though I know that's not the question at hand). I think Omar Vizquel is going to find himself in the same boat.

    Personally, I'd take Ozzie.
    Your first seven words would make it easy for me to believe that you wouldn't have as much respect for Concepcion's game as some of the other shortstops.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

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  11. #11
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Fair enough Randy. But I would make the argument that people who watched Davey play every day and cheered for his team are more likely to be biased regarding his relative standing in history than someone who never saw him play a game.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  12. #12
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    I don't think I am biased in saying that Concepcion was the best shortstop in baseball during the time he played. When you compare him to the players that are in the Hall of Fame at that position, he stacks up pretty well.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
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  13. #13
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC View Post
    I don't think I am biased in saying that Concepcion was the best shortstop in baseball during the time he played. When you compare him to the players that are in the Hall of Fame at that position, he stacks up pretty well.
    Exactly. Hard to ask more than being the best of your era, anchoring a dynasty, winning 5 GGs and appearing in 9 All-Star games. Throw in that his numbers are as good or better than half the shortstops in Cooperstown and I'm not sure what the argument against the guy is.
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  14. #14
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC View Post
    I don't think I am biased in saying that Concepcion was the best shortstop in baseball during the time he played. When you compare him to the players that are in the Hall of Fame at that position, he stacks up pretty well.
    Ok. That assessment should be able to be made regardless of whether or not I've seen him played. And even if he was the best SS during his era (which would buoy his HOF case), that doesn't make him better than Ozzie Smith necessarily.

    Ozzie had a career 87 OPS+ (OPS relative to a league average index of 100) and stole 580 bases at a 79.7 clip in 10,778 PA.

    Davey had a career 88 OPS+ and stole 321 bases at a 74.7% clip in 9,640 PA.

    Davey may have been a wonderful defensive SS, but I don't think I've seen anybody claim he was better than, or the equal of, Ozzie. I'm very open to being shown that I'm wrong. From what I see, they were very similar offensively but Ozzie stole significantly more bases at a higher success rate and was a better fielder. Sorry if that take seems uninformed to those of you who were alive during the BRM era, but from all that I've seen, it seems a fair opinion to me. Is Davey a HOF, well, you guys are making a pretty darn good case for him that I'm willing to buy in to. But would I have him over Ozzie? The accomplishments of his teams don't sway me one way or the other. Derek Jeter is a great SS but I'd still rather have ARod.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 01-02-2007 at 04:33 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  15. #15
    Hisssssssss Yachtzee's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Ok. That assessment should be able to be made regardless of whether or not I've seen him played. And even if he was the best SS during his era (which would buoy his HOF case), that doesn't make him better than Ozzie Smith necessarily.

    Ozzie had a career 87 OPS+ (OPS relative to a league average index of 100) and stole 580 bases at a 79.7 clip in 10,778 PA.

    Davey had a career 88 OPS+ and stole 321 bases at a 74.7% clip in 9,640 PA.

    Davey may have been a wonderful defensive SS, but I don't think I've seen anybody claim he was better than, or the equal of, Ozzie. I'm very open to being shown that I'm wrong. From what I see, they were very similar offensively but Ozzie stole significantly more bases at a higher success rate and was a better fielder. Sorry if that take seems uninformed to those of you who were alive during the BRM era, but from all that I've seen, it seems a fair opinion to me. Is Davey a HOF, well, you guys are making a pretty darn good case for him that I'm willing to buy in to. But would I have him over Ozzie? The accomplishments of his teams don't sway me one way or the other. Derek Jeter is a great SS but I'd still rather have ARod.
    To be fair on the stolen bases, Ozzie played on a "Whitey-ball" team with guys like Vince Coleman and Willie McGee, where they always had the green light to run and were encouraged to go as often as they could. Concepcion played on a team with more power, where stealing bases wasn't always a priority.
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