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View Poll Results: Which would you have rather had on your team?

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  • Concepcion

    75 70.09%
  • Smith

    32 29.91%
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Thread: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

  1. #16
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC View Post
    I don't think I am biased in saying that Concepcion was the best shortstop in baseball during the time he played. When you compare him to the players that are in the Hall of Fame at that position, he stacks up pretty well.
    Ok. That assessment should be able to be made regardless of whether or not I've seen him played. And even if he was the best SS during his era (which would buoy his HOF case), that doesn't make him better than Ozzie Smith necessarily.

    Ozzie had a career 87 OPS+ (OPS relative to a league average index of 100) and stole 580 bases at a 79.7 clip in 10,778 PA.

    Davey had a career 88 OPS+ and stole 321 bases at a 74.7% clip in 9,640 PA.

    Davey may have been a wonderful defensive SS, but I don't think I've seen anybody claim he was better than, or the equal of, Ozzie. I'm very open to being shown that I'm wrong. From what I see, they were very similar offensively but Ozzie stole significantly more bases at a higher success rate and was a better fielder. Sorry if that take seems uninformed to those of you who were alive during the BRM era, but from all that I've seen, it seems a fair opinion to me. Is Davey a HOF, well, you guys are making a pretty darn good case for him that I'm willing to buy in to. But would I have him over Ozzie? The accomplishments of his teams don't sway me one way or the other. Derek Jeter is a great SS but I'd still rather have ARod.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 01-02-2007 at 04:33 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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  3. #17
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Ozzieís best game at the dish? - The Wizard of Oz was known for his glove but it was his bat that amazed me on my first trip to Wrigley in 1993. Ozzie Smith must have liked Wrigley Field, aside from San Diego and St Louis Ozzie drove in more runs at Wrigley than any other park. He had back to back 4 hit games in the early 80ís there and 2 5 hit games there as well, the only 5 hit games in his career. I happened to catch the last one and it also was a classic Cubs nightmare game with over 20 runs scored by both teams, Harry leaned out of the window and we all sang with him. Ozzie topped the day off with 6 rbiís. It was quite the display from the skinny little guy known for his glove.

    Code:
    St. Louis Cardinals 11, Chicago Cubs 10
    Game Played on Thursday, June 17, 1993 (D) at Wrigley Field
    
    STL N    0  0  1    4  3  0    2  0  1  -  11 17  0
    CHI N    1  0  0    2  0  3    0  2  2  -  10 19  0
    
    BATTING
    St. Louis Cardinals   AB   R   H RBI      BB  SO      PO   A
    O. Smith ss            5   1   5   6       0   0       2   2

  4. #18
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    By not seeing Concepcion play, I think one misses out on the plays that Davey made that, while not as flashy, were just as effective. He made so many hard plays look very easy with little or no flash. While both made it look very easy, they did it in a different manner. Concepcion also had a lot more "pop" in the bat than did Smith as the HR totals clearly show.

    One can't go wrong with either, but I'll still take Concepcion. I realize I am in the minority.
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  5. #19
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Michael Humphreys came out with an historical Defensive Regression Analysis a few seasons ago and took a look at shortstops defensively from 1974-2001. In a nutshell, here was his summary ...

    The Excellent shortstops during 1974-2001 were Ozzie Smith, Dave Concepcion, Ozzie Guillen, and Mark Belanger. The Very Good shortstops were Ripken, Templeton, Larkin, Dent, Burleson, Jose Uribe and maybe Craig Reynolds and Greg Gagne.
    He goes into quite a bit more detail in the link provided.
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  6. #20
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    I think you all do make the point, however, that if Ozzie is a first ballot HOF, Davey should be considered a fairly major omission.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  7. #21
    Hisssssssss Yachtzee's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Ok. That assessment should be able to be made regardless of whether or not I've seen him played. And even if he was the best SS during his era (which would buoy his HOF case), that doesn't make him better than Ozzie Smith necessarily.

    Ozzie had a career 87 OPS+ (OPS relative to a league average index of 100) and stole 580 bases at a 79.7 clip in 10,778 PA.

    Davey had a career 88 OPS+ and stole 321 bases at a 74.7% clip in 9,640 PA.

    Davey may have been a wonderful defensive SS, but I don't think I've seen anybody claim he was better than, or the equal of, Ozzie. I'm very open to being shown that I'm wrong. From what I see, they were very similar offensively but Ozzie stole significantly more bases at a higher success rate and was a better fielder. Sorry if that take seems uninformed to those of you who were alive during the BRM era, but from all that I've seen, it seems a fair opinion to me. Is Davey a HOF, well, you guys are making a pretty darn good case for him that I'm willing to buy in to. But would I have him over Ozzie? The accomplishments of his teams don't sway me one way or the other. Derek Jeter is a great SS but I'd still rather have ARod.
    To be fair on the stolen bases, Ozzie played on a "Whitey-ball" team with guys like Vince Coleman and Willie McGee, where they always had the green light to run and were encouraged to go as often as they could. Concepcion played on a team with more power, where stealing bases wasn't always a priority.
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  8. #22
    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    I agree with most all of the above; I think both men are HoF SS's.

    If Davey did back-flips on the field, ala Ozzie, he'd be in the HoF with Perez, Morgan and Bench right now. Davey was (and is still) seen as a role player on one of the best teams in baseball history, and that perception will always hurt him.

    The numbers are fairly even, IMO. Davey had a better bat, Ozzie a better glove, and yet Concepcion is still considered an "excellent" SS; the best of his era with the glove (and that era would be the 10 years right before Smith, arguably the best glove ever @ SS).

    As long as Pee Wee Reese and Phil Rizutto are in the HoF, I will always argue that there should be room for David Concepcion.

    And Barry Larkin, too! (Sorry, got off topic there )
    Last edited by Always Red; 01-02-2007 at 05:47 PM.

  9. #23
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    One aspect that is missed is that Whitey went out and got Ozzie, Whitey stroked Ozzie to the press, Whitey packaged his brand of the game an tent revivaled it. Ozzie was the main attraction in that circus.

    Davey was Plutoed by playing with some serious talent, by the time he was alone in the clubhouse and on the field he no longer was the same player. His game was transitional in a transitional era, he ain't Chico Carrasquel. But his timing and circumstances aren't that sexy, though one of the biggest stories of his career was the dryer incident.

  10. #24
    Oy Vey! Red in Chicago's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by Always Red View Post
    I agree with most all of the above; I think both men are HoF SS's.

    If Davey did back-flips on the field, ala Ozzie, he'd be in the HoF with Perez, Morgan and Bench right now. Davey was (and is still) seen as a role player on one of the best teams in baseball history, and that perception will always hurt him.

    The numbers are fairly even, IMO. Davey had a better bat, Ozzie a better glove, and yet Concepcion is still considered an "excellent" SS; the best of his era with the glove (and that era would be the 10 years right before Smith, arguably the best glove ever @ SS).

    As long as Pee Wee Reese and Phil Rizutto are in the HoF, I will always argue that there should be room for David Concepcion.

    And Barry Larkin, too! (Sorry, got off topic there )

    I think you hit the nail on the head. Backflips can do wonders for a person's image

    I had the honor of seeing both shortstops play the game live and in person. By picking either guy, you can't go wrong. Maybe I'm biased because I'm a Reds fan and the fact that I saw Davey play a lot more games.

    While Ozzie's glove may have been a tad bit better, I'd rather have the extra pop in the bat. Certainly some of Davey's offensive stats must have been held down due to him batting so low in the order for much of his career.

    My vote is for Davey all the way, but unfortunately I don't matter

  11. #25
    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Career Fielding Percentage at the shortstop position:

    Ozzie Smith .978
    Dave Concepcion .971


    Okay, so I was wrong, Smith's fielding percentage was higher, but it's not that far off the mark.
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!

  12. #26
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by savafan View Post
    Career Fielding Percentage at the shortstop position:

    Ozzie Smith .978
    Dave Concepcion .971


    Okay, so I was wrong, Smith's fielding percentage was higher, but it's not that far off the mark.
    Ozzie was the pickin king in the plastic grass era

    Code:
    NATIONAL LEAGUE
    SEASON
    1970-1990
    SS
    
    ASSISTS                       YEAR      A     
    1    Ozzie Smith              1980      621   
    2    Ivan DeJesus             1977      595   
    T3   Bill Russell             1973      560   
    T3   Larry Bowa               1971      560   
    5    Ivan DeJesus             1978      558   
    6    Ozzie Smith              1979      555   
    7    Ozzie Smith              1985      549   
    8    Ozzie Smith              1978      548   
    9    Bill Almon               1977      538   
    10   Dave Concepcion          1974      536   
    11   Ozzie Smith              1982      535   
    T12  Dickie Thon              1983      533   
    T12  Bill Russell             1978      533   
    14   Ivan DeJesus             1980      529   
    15   Rafael Ramirez           1982      528   
    16   Don Kessinger            1973      526   
    17   Garry Templeton          1979      525   
    T18  Garry Templeton          1978      523   
    T18  Bill Russell             1977      523   
    T20  Ozzie Smith              1988      519   
    T20  Ozzie Smith              1983      519

  13. #27
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    though one of the biggest stories of his career was the dryer incident.
    That was a hilarious situation. Didn't he get burned (arms) really bad from that?

    If I go by stats it's Ozzie.

    If I go by loyalty and the fact he was simply one of my favorite Reds since I was a SS, then it's Davey.

    Davey was a career sub-700 OPS player.... but I still loved the guy.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  14. #28
    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post

    Davey was a career sub-700 OPS player.... but I still loved the guy.
    Davey still has Ozzie beat in the OPS category

    Ozzie - .665
    Davey - .679
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!

  15. #29
    1st pick 2022 B.B. draft George Foster's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC View Post
    Not to mention, he played in 5 League Championship Series and 4 World Series, was the MVP of the 1982 All Star Game and won 2 Silver Slugger awards.
    A home-run in the 1982 All Star game with the white shoes!!

    I have seen both of them play. Ozzie was the face of the St. Louis franchise, Davey was not. That should not keep Davey out of the hall, their stats are similar. "Popularity" or "TV time" should not have anything to do with it.

    You have to remember that during the late 80's and 90's Ozzie was on TV a lot more. Davey was only on TV on Sunday's maybe, and the playoffs.
    Not this year...maybe a Wild Card

  16. #30
    Hisssssssss Yachtzee's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by George Foster View Post
    A home-run in the 1982 All Star game with the white shoes!!

    I have seen both of them play. Ozzie was the face of the St. Louis franchise, Davey was not. That should not keep Davey out of the hall, their stats are similar. "Popularity" or "TV time" should not have anything to do with it.

    You have to remember that during the late 80's and 90's Ozzie was on TV a lot more. Davey was only on TV on Sunday's maybe, and the playoffs.
    TV time is definitely another key difference. The height of Davey's career occurred before highlight shows and ESPN Sportscenter. Ozzie's career peaked as these shows were taking off. Most of my knowledge of Davey's play comes from the descriptions of Marty Brenneman over the radio, with the NBC Game of the Week thrown in. He got some exposure on TWIB in the early '80s, but when Sportscenter really started to take off, he was already in the twilight of his career and guys like Stillwell and Larkin were manning shortstop. Meanwhile, Ozzie was featured on Sportscenter for quite some time. The crazy thing is, as brilliant a fielder as Ozzie was, I can picture his backflips as clear as if I had just seen him do it, but I can't remember him actually fielding the ball. However, I can vividly remember Davey digging one out of the hole and hitting the first baseman with one of his patented one-hoppers to first.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.


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