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View Poll Results: Which would you have rather had on your team?

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  • Concepcion

    75 70.09%
  • Smith

    32 29.91%
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Thread: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

  1. #31
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    TV time is definitely another key difference. The height of Davey's career occurred before highlight shows and ESPN Sportscenter. Ozzie's career peaked as these shows were taking off. Most of my knowledge of Davey's play comes from the descriptions of Marty Brenneman over the radio, with the NBC Game of the Week thrown in. He got some exposure on TWIB in the early '80s, but when Sportscenter really started to take off, he was already in the twilight of his career and guys like Stillwell and Larkin were manning shortstop. Meanwhile, Ozzie was featured on Sportscenter for quite some time. The crazy thing is, as brilliant a fielder as Ozzie was, I can picture his backflips as clear as if I had just seen him do it, but I can't remember him actually fielding the ball. However, I can vividly remember Davey digging one out of the hole and hitting the first baseman with one of his patented one-hoppers to first.
    This is a brilliant observation. Beyond the new era of SS and the new era of power, the new era of media has done a lot diminish the memory of any pre-cable/internet age player if he isn't in hallowed Ruth/Gehrig type status.

    Davey just didn't have a defining moment in his career and, because his teams were so good, was always stuck down in the order and never had the advantage of hitting number 2 on a playoff caliber team. Smith's numbers in his best years are helped a lot by hitting 2nd vs. 7th or 8th.

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  3. #32
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    TV time is definitely another key difference. The height of Davey's career occurred before highlight shows and ESPN Sportscenter. Ozzie's career peaked as these shows were taking off. Most of my knowledge of Davey's play comes from the descriptions of Marty Brenneman over the radio, with the NBC Game of the Week thrown in. He got some exposure on TWIB in the early '80s, but when Sportscenter really started to take off, he was already in the twilight of his career and guys like Stillwell and Larkin were manning shortstop. Meanwhile, Ozzie was featured on Sportscenter for quite some time. The crazy thing is, as brilliant a fielder as Ozzie was, I can picture his backflips as clear as if I had just seen him do it, but I can't remember him actually fielding the ball. However, I can vividly remember Davey digging one out of the hole and hitting the first baseman with one of his patented one-hoppers to first.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden

  4. #33
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    It's just a statement of our times that a rock solid performer like Davey doesn't get the hype that backflippin', flashy Ozzie did.

    Not taking anything away from Ozzie. He was one of the best ever to play. But the very thing that made Davey so valuable is also the thing that may keep him out of the hall..... he got the job done with effortless ease. He made it look easier than a lesser talented guy who would be thrashing and scrambling to get to balls that Davey glided to with superior anticipation an athletic ability.

    I see Davey's fielding game much the same as Maz's. Rock solid dependablilty and technical innovations to their position.

    My hopes have faded a bit for Davey to ever make the hall. But I believe he belongs there.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
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  5. #34
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    I used BaseballReference.com's "stat neutralizer" to compare Davey, Ozzie and Pee Wee Reese. The stat neutralizer purports to revise statistics to what they would be had a player played in a neutral ballpark, with a 162 game schedule, and in a league where the average team scored 750 runs a season.
    At bats: Ozzie 9982, Davey 9113, Pee Wee 8434
    Runs: Ozzie 1478, Pee Wee 1424, Davey 1139 (Remember that runs and RBI still greatly depend upon the other players in the lineup and where a player hits in the batting order)
    Hits: Ozzie 2752, Davey 2554, Pee Wee 2294
    Doubles: Ozzie 446, Davey 431, Pee Wee 348
    Triples: Pee Wee 83, Ozzie 75, Davey 50
    Home Runs: Pee Wee 129, Davey 109, Ozzie 30
    RBI: Davey 1099, Pee Wee 940, Ozzie 918
    Ave: Davey .280, Ozzie .276, Pee Wee .272
    OBP: Pee Wee .369, Ozzie .353, Davey .337
    SPCT: Pee Wee .379, Davey .374, Ozzie .344
    Stolen Bases: Ozzie 648, Davey 346, Pee Wee 244

    I forgot to check on walks, but Pee Wee obviously lead there, given that he leads in OBP despite having the lowest batting average of the trio.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  6. #35
    1st pick 2022 B.B. draft George Foster's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    This is a brilliant observation. Beyond the new era of SS and the new era of power, the new era of media has done a lot diminish the memory of any pre-cable/internet age player if he isn't in hallowed Ruth/Gehrig type status.

    Davey just didn't have a defining moment in his career and, because his teams were so good, was always stuck down in the order and never had the advantage of hitting number 2 on a playoff caliber team. Smith's numbers in his best years are helped a lot by hitting 2nd vs. 7th or 8th.
    Hey I had the observation 1st!!! give up some points!!
    Not this year...maybe a Wild Card

  7. #36
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    I have forgotten, has Allan Trammell made it in yet? I can't see Davey in unless Trammell's in.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  8. #37
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Trammell isn't in yet, and I too rank him ahead of Davey.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  9. #38
    Member Jpup's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Joe (Cincinnati)
    Do you think Davey Concepcion will ever get to the Hall? He compares favorably to Ozzie Smith, is it because he didn't do the flips?

    ROB NEYER
    He doesn't compare favorable to Ozzie Smith, at all. Smith was a better hitter, a better baserunner, and a better fielder. Objectively, Ozzie was one of the dozen greatest shortstops ever, and Concepcion probably wasn't one of the greatest two dozen.
    "My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton

  10. #39
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by Jpup View Post
    Joe (Cincinnati)
    Do you think Davey Concepcion will ever get to the Hall? He compares favorably to Ozzie Smith, is it because he didn't do the flips?

    ROB NEYER
    He doesn't compare favorable to Ozzie Smith, at all. Smith was a better hitter, a better baserunner, and a better fielder. Objectively, Ozzie was one of the dozen greatest shortstops ever, and Concepcion probably wasn't one of the greatest two dozen.
    I wonder what metric Neyer is thinking of when he says Ozzie was a better hitter? Baserunner I can buy, fielder I can buy. Davey had a slightly lower OBP and higher SLG with a career OPS+ high than Ozzie's.

    Unless you all are vastly overrating Concepcion's defense, there's absolutely no way there are 12 SS between Ozzie and Davey.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  11. #40
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Concepcion was the better hitter. If he'd been able to spend most of his career in the #2 slot, like Ozzie, then his slight advantage with the bat would be fairly large.

    Ozzie was a better fielder than everybody. Concepcion would only rank perhaps in the top 5 defensive shortstops of all time, hardly schmucksville. Ozzie was a better baserunner, though Concepcion was hardly a slouch in that department. And since when has Rob Neyer made a case that anyone deserves significant extra credit for stolen bases?

    Honestly, if you can't even acknowledge that two guys with similar hitting numbers, great gloves, great wheels and a great head for the game share many similarities then you've just about jumped a shark.

    On the Trammell point - yes, Trammell was better. I'd have both him and Concepcion on my ballot. If Concepcion, by some miracle, would happen to slide into Cooperstown ahead of Trammell the upside would be that Trammell would surely be following within a few years.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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  12. #41
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    ROB NEYER
    He doesn't compare favorable to Ozzie Smith, at all. Smith was a better hitter, a better baserunner, and a better fielder. Objectively, Ozzie was one of the dozen greatest shortstops ever, and Concepcion probably wasn't one of the greatest two dozen.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden

  13. #42
    Member Jpup's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    I always respected Neyer, but he killed that with that post. While I think Davey is borderline, he seemed to just blow him off like he shouldn't even be considered.
    "My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton

  14. #43
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by Jpup View Post
    I always respected Neyer, but he killed that with that post. While I think Davey is borderline, he seemed to just blow him off like he shouldn't even be considered.
    Neyer has his own weakness, he grew up an AL fan and is AL myopic, he admits that he knows less about the game prior to Ruth then he should and IMO he leans a bit heavy on the super teams for content.

    But I miss reading him for free.

  15. #44
    Little Reds BandWagon Reds Nd2's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Here are the SS rankings from the Bill James Historical Abstract:
    Code:
    1.  Honus Wagoner
    2.  Arky Vaughn
    3.  Cal Ripken Jr.
    4.  Robin Yount
    5.  Ernie Banks
    6.  Barry Larkin
    7.  Ozzie Smith
    8.  Joe Cronin
    9.  Alan Trammell
    10. Pee Wee Reese
    11. Luke Appling
    12. Lou Bourdreau
    13. Luis Aparicio
    14. George Davis
    15. Jim Fregosi
    16. Phil Rizzuto
    17. Alex Rodriguez
    18. Hughie Jenninings
    19. Maury Wills
    20. Johnny Pesky
    21. Bill Dahlen
    22. Vern Stephens
    23. Joe Sewell
    24. Tony Fernandez
    25. Bert Campaneris
    26. Davey Concepcion
    "...You just have a wider lens than one game."
    --Former Reds GM Wayne Krivsky, on why he didn't fly Josh Hamilton to Colorado for one game.

    "...its money well-spent. Don't screw around with your freedom."
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  16. #45
    Member Jpup's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by Reds Nd2 View Post
    Here are the SS rankings from the Bill James Historical Abstract:
    That looks like where Neyer got his info. Surely he has researched it himself.
    "My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton


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