Turn Off Ads?

View Poll Results: Which would you have rather had on your team?

Voters
107. You may not vote on this poll
  • Concepcion

    75 70.09%
  • Smith

    32 29.91%
Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 63

Thread: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

  1. #46
    Little Reds BandWagon Reds Nd2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    3,244

    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Anyone who has access to the premium content at Baseball Prospectus might be interested in this article. Joe Sheehan gives his reasons why he wouldn't vote for Concepcion, among others, on the HoF ballot.
    "...You just have a wider lens than one game."
    --Former Reds GM Wayne Krivsky, on why he didn't fly Josh Hamilton to Colorado for one game.

    "...its money well-spent. Don't screw around with your freedom."
    --Roy Tucker, on why you need to lawyer up when you find yourself swimming with sharks.

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #47
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    28,452

    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by Reds Nd2 View Post
    Anyone who has access to the premium content at Baseball Prospectus might be interested in this article. Joe Sheehan gives his reasons why he wouldn't vote for Concepcion, among others, on the HoF ballot.
    Where does he rank failure to play in New York?
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  4. #48
    Little Reds BandWagon Reds Nd2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    3,244

    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Where does he rank failure to play in New York?
    Don Mattingly is not a Hall of Famer.

    A great player for four years, and a good one for four others, Mattingly’s career falls short of the established standards for Hall of Fame first basemen.
    "...You just have a wider lens than one game."
    --Former Reds GM Wayne Krivsky, on why he didn't fly Josh Hamilton to Colorado for one game.

    "...its money well-spent. Don't screw around with your freedom."
    --Roy Tucker, on why you need to lawyer up when you find yourself swimming with sharks.

  5. #49
    Hisssssssss Yachtzee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Land of the Lost
    Posts
    7,267

    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Neyer has his own weakness, he grew up an AL fan and is AL myopic, he admits that he knows less about the game prior to Ruth then he should and IMO he leans a bit heavy on the super teams for content.

    But I miss reading him for free.
    I haven't read his articles since he went premium.

    It's probably based off of Concepcion's rankings in Bill James Historical Abstract, but then I really didn't understand Concepcion's ranking in that book anyway. If it's based off of Win Shares, then Luis Aparicio has no business hanging out at #13 all-time. Was Jim Fregosi that great to rank #15? I've always heard about him more as a manager than a shortstop. They don't really say anything about Davey about his ranking or play, other than he was so tall and skinny that Pete Rose said he could have pulled a bone, but didn't have enough muscle to pull.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

  6. #50
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    28,452

    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    It should be noted that James also named Concepcion the top SS of the 1970s.

    James weighted peak heavily which cost Concepcion a bit and aided Rizzuto.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  7. #51
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    6,284

    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    I haven't read his articles since he went premium.

    It's probably based off of Concepcion's rankings in Bill James Historical Abstract, but then I really didn't understand Concepcion's ranking in that book anyway. If it's based off of Win Shares, then Luis Aparicio has no business hanging out at #13 all-time. Was Jim Fregosi that great to rank #15? I've always heard about him more as a manager than a shortstop. They don't really say anything about Davey about his ranking or play, other than he was so tall and skinny that Pete Rose said he could have pulled a bone, but didn't have enough muscle to pull.
    I don't understand James' ranking of any player in the Ozzie, Davey, Aparicio, Rizzuto, and Rabbit Maranville group. All were moderate hitting shortstops who excelled to a new level defensively, and all their careers are rather similar in that mold. He has Ozzie #7, Aparicio #13, Rizzuto #16, Davey #26, and Maranville #38.

    Ozzie is the greatest defensive shortstop ever, which means he was just a little bit better than the rest of those guys in that group, and he's probably slightly greater overall than everyone else in that group, but the differences between him and the others can't be that huge.
    Barry Larkin - HOF, 2012

    Put an end to the Lost Decade.

  8. #52
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    6,284

    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008...bargain-books/

    Quick word about Concepcion: Iíve received several emails lately asking about Omar Vizquel and if I think he is a Hall of Famer. Itís a touchy subject for me because Iím a big Vizquel fan for all the obvious Cleveland reasons, and I think he certainly has a compelling enough case with the 11 gold gloves and 2,600-plus hits and 1,350 runs scored and so on. He has quite a few big name Hall of Fame supporters right now ó Peter Gammons is a big fan, Tracy Ringolsby too ó and I suspect there will be a pretty overpowering campaign for him when heís Hall eligible.

    And it makes me a little sad that Dave Concepcion never had that campaign. I firmly believe Davey was a better player than Vizquel. It makes me a little sad because I have never voted for Concepcion, not even this past year which I believe was his last year of eligibility. Iíve thought about him hard, respected the career a lot, but being brutally honest I always thought he fell just a touch short, and anyway Iíve been much more interested in another shortstop, Alan Trammell, who I think was a better player than either of those guys.

    But the interest in Vizquel (along with my vivid Reds dreams) has made me go back and realize that Concepcion really was a unique player in his time. First off, he was a brilliant defensive shortstop ó his fielding numbers are off the charts. Bill James rated him an A+ defender in his Win Shares book (Vizquel, controversially, was rated a B-). And while Range Factor obviously has its quirks and flaws, itís worth noting that five times in Concepcionís career he had a 5.00 range factor or higher (Vizquel, and I couldnít quite believe this, NEVER had a 5.00 range factor).

    People will point out that Concepcion won five Gold Gloves to Vizquelís 11, but this is purely the Ozzie factor Ö Vizquel won five gold gloves after he turned 32. Concepcion won none because Ozzie Smith had arrived Ö Vizquel doesnít win any of those against Ozzie either.

    But itís offense where I think Concepcion has a big, big advantage over Vizquel. Their core numbers will not show this:

    Concepcion: .267/.322/.357, 389 doubles, 48 triples, 101 homers, 993 runs, 950 RBIs, 321 stolen bases, 88 OPS+.

    Vizquel: .272/.338/.355, 419 doubles, 71 triples, 77 homers, 1,350 runs, 878 RBIs, 383 stolen bases, 83 OPS+.

    Looking at those numbers in context, it looks like a wash or an edge to Vizquel ó he played longer and his OPS+ is lower, but he did score 350 more runs, and he has 300 or so more hits and he stole 62 more bases.

    But hereís the thing: Concepcion in addition to his defensive prowess was very much an offensive shortstop in his time, and Vizquel absolutely was not. Runs created shows this best:

    Vizquel is -197 runs created above average which obviously is not good.
    Concepcion is -165 runs creative above average, which ainít much better.

    BUT Ö

    Vizquel is -15 runs created above POSITION. That is, even when you compare him only to shortstops, he was slightly below average as a hitter. Sure, he played in the time of A-Rod, Jeter, Nomah, Larkin and the rest, but thatís the point. The game changed, and shortstops were expected to hit, and Omar was a slight offensive liability for much of his career. Vizquel had only one year where his RCAP was +20 or better ó that was his outstanding 1999 season when he was +31.

    Concepcion? Heís +126 runs created above position. He had SIX seasons where his RCAP was +20 or better. That means that for his time he was not only a good hitting shortstop, he was really an EXCELLENT hitting shortstop. Going back to 1920, Concepcion ranks 15th all-time in RCAP among shortstops who played 1,500 or more games Ö heís well behind the greatest hitting shortstops like Larkin, Jeter, Trammell, Yount and heís also behind Ozzie. But heís much better than some of the other great defensive shortstops like Aparicio, Marion, Rizzuto and, of course, Omar.

    This is not to say that Concepcion is a Hall of Famer Ö as I already mentioned I think he probably falls just short. I think Trammell has a more compelling case, and I think Larkin who will be eligible soon has a much more compelling case (I think Barry Larkin should be a slam dunk, first ballot guy Ö weíll get to that at the appropriate time). But I think Concepcion was a great player, and heís a significantly better Hall candidate than Omar, and I am already pre-raging for the Omar hype that seems inevitable in five years.

    **Quick word about Cesar Geronimo Ö I will be in Cincinnati in about 10 days for his induction into the Reds Hall of Fame. Heís going in to the Hall with Cincinnati native Barry Larkin, which is fitting Ö Geronimo never did headline anything his whole life. But Chief, as they called him, was an amazing defensive centerfielder, he did have a really nice year in Ď76, and he also completes the circle ó every member of the Great Eight will now be in the Reds Hall.
    Barry Larkin - HOF, 2012

    Put an end to the Lost Decade.

  9. #53
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    princeton, nj
    Posts
    9,482

    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    it took a great player to make a great team greater. a simple All-Star player wouldn't have been enough.

    Concepcion should have been in the HoF a long time ago.

    Smith was better, though.

  10. #54
    Member durl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Nashvull
    Posts
    1,750

    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Smith will always have an "aura" about him because of his backflips and his annual All-Star appearances. The problem is that backflips aren't a productive part of the game and Ozzie made the All-Star team when he was batting below .200. I wonder if the Ozzie mystique carries more weight than his actual performance on the field.

    Don't get me wrong, Ozzie was an amazing fielder and deserves the Hall. Davey was also an amazing fielder and should be in the Hall as well. Forced to choose, I might go with Ozzie but it wouldn't be an easy choice.

    I believe what keeps Davey from standing out (as others have pointed out) is that Davey played with Rose, Bench, Foster, Morgan, and Perez while Ozzie played with...Willie McGee? Davey was a great player on a great team. Ozzie was a great shortstop that did backflips.

  11. #55
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    10,299

    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by durl View Post
    Smith will always have an "aura" about him because of his backflips and his annual All-Star appearances. The problem is that backflips aren't a productive part of the game and Ozzie made the All-Star team when he was batting below .200. I wonder if the Ozzie mystique carries more weight than his actual performance on the field.

    Don't get me wrong, Ozzie was an amazing fielder and deserves the Hall. Davey was also an amazing fielder and should be in the Hall as well. Forced to choose, I might go with Ozzie but it wouldn't be an easy choice.

    I believe what keeps Davey from standing out (as others have pointed out) is that Davey played with Rose, Bench, Foster, Morgan, and Perez while Ozzie played with...Willie McGee? Davey was a great player on a great team. Ozzie was a great shortstop that did backflips.
    Ozzie played in an era where he was showcased like none before. When Ozzie played the midwest was king in baseball. NY and Boston were afterthoughts. Big market baseball had yet to go mainstream. Sportscenter was new and was more geared to showing the best teams and the best highlights rather than pimping/creating the biggest stories in the biggest markets. Ozzie was a highlight real in the same way Jim Edmonds was. He would make that spectacular play that would get played all over the place. But IMO his substance pales in comparison to Davey, Trammel, or even Visquel.

  12. #56
    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Cincy West
    Posts
    5,090

    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    I've said it before, and I'll say it until I can speak no longer: If Phil Rizzuto, Pee Wee Reese and Ozzie Smith belong in the HoF, then so does David Concepcion. And so does Alan Trammell, IMO.

    None of these guys were the type of player who could carry a team all year long; they all had faults as players (for instance, Dave Concepcion put together one of the all time worst seasons in baseball history as a #3 hitter in the order- not Davey's fault, as he should have been hitting 6th or so, but that's what happens when you are on a really bad team). Some of the modern day SS's can and have carried their teams all year. The game changed so quickly, that guys like Concepcion and Trammell are going to be left out.

  13. #57
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Olathe, KS
    Posts
    13,832

    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    There's a bit of backlash now against Ozzie. It's the kind of thing that happens after years of hearing how great a guy was. People begin to think, "Aw, he wasn't *that* great."

    Ozzie was, though.

    The Posnaski article lauds Concepcion for having a range factor over 5.00 five times in his career. Ozzie did that 10 times.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  14. #58
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Newburgh, IN
    Posts
    3,458

    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Ask a bunch of cardinal fans! You'll get a different poll. LOL
    And This One Belongs to the REDS!!!

  15. #59
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    West N. Carolina
    Posts
    55,719

    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by Reds1 View Post
    Ask a bunch of cardinal fans! You'll get a different poll. LOL
    I doubt Cardinal fans even know who Concepcion is
    Go Gators!

  16. #60
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    8,724

    Re: Dave Concepcion VS. Ozzie Smith

    I quickly picked Davey...simply because he's one of my all-time favorites and because I simply hate Smith. However, looking at it logically...you'd have to say Smith. Defensively, it's a wash. I think Davey was a bit better, but its certainly close enough to be a wash. That leaves the bat and the bases. Well, Smith was a much better baserunner (and stealer). Edge Smith...by far. Hitting-wise, they were somewhat similar. Very little power, mediocre average hitter. The difference is in these stats:

    Walk/strikeout ratios ( 1186 k's & 736 bb for Davey / 589 k's # 1072 bb for Ozzie )
    Sacrifice hits ( 74 for Davey / 214 for Ozzie )
    Hit into double plays ( 266 for Davey / 167 for Ozzie ).

    All three catagories, Smith takes in a landslide. Ozzie...and it's not even close. Sorry Davey. We still love you. :O)
    Chapman to the rotation!!!! Do it already!!!!


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25