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Thread: Red Sox, Pineiro agree to preliminary $4 million deal

  1. #16
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: Red Sox, Pineiro agree to preliminary $4 million deal

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Agreed...it's tough to compete with Boston. But this FO has to do something to make Cincy a little more enticing. It's a vicious cycle that may never end.
    Unfortunately, the only thing that Reds can do to attract players is to

    1) overpay or 2) start winning

    If they overpay guys that are huge risks then the winning part isn't very likely.

    I'm OK with overpaying for the right guys, but it seems that is everyone's strategy right now.
    Get your nunchucks and the keys to your dad's car. I know where we can get a gun

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  3. #17
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    Re: Red Sox, Pineiro agree to preliminary $4 million deal

    The other issue is the kind of leeway teams like the REDS can give a guy like Pinero. If Pinero sucks its likely that Boston will either hide him or work out a trade that will mean that he can still pitch in the majors while Boston picks up his salary. If he sucks with the REDS they will more than likely DFA him rather than trade him. Guys like Pinero still think they have a future in the major leagues so they are looking to see how they can continue even if Boston don't want him.

  4. #18
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: Red Sox, Pineiro agree to preliminary $4 million deal

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro View Post
    Are you kidding? If The Reds signed Piniero, RZ would meltdown. Hell, we already have him in the form of Kyle Lohse (who is better IMO) and everyone is freaking out that we haven't cut him.
    No kidding. Shell out $4mil for a guy with a 6.36ERA who might, maybe, could possibly have some sort of upside? The moaning and complaining would be insuferable. And what is that upside? He "figures it out" in the bullpen and shaves his era down to 5.36? Wheee.

    Trust me, I'm not exicited about Stanton, Weathers and Cromier. I'm especially not excited about the raft of 2 year deals. But that doesn't make it rational to go overspend to the tune of $4mil on a guy who's best case is an era in the 5's.

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Listen, I don't think Pineiro would be the smartest signing to pull off (that would have been Dotel) but I'm kind of getting desperate. .
    I don't think you are alone edabbs. But desperation is rarely, if ever, the breeding ground for inspired and wise player moves.
    Last edited by Ltlabner; 01-04-2007 at 07:35 AM.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  5. #19
    Two-Time Batting Champ Edd Roush's Avatar
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    Re: Red Sox, Pineiro agree to preliminary $4 million deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post


    I don't think you are alone edabbs. But desperation is rarely, if ever, the breeding ground for inspired and wise player moves.
    :felo: :kearns:

  6. #20
    post hype sleeper cincinnati chili's Avatar
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    Re: Red Sox, Pineiro agree to preliminary $4 million deal

    I admit I don't get to see Piniero pitch all that much. But I watched him in an interleague game against the Rockies last year, and never recall a major league pitcher so blatantly visibly quitting on his team like he did on that day.

    It's a nutty signing.

    People accuse the saber crowd of throwing around too many numbers on this board, but to keep it really simple:

    If a guy is significantly below average (which Piniero has been for 2 straight years), don't buy him for money that's significantly above the league's average salary. That's a start.
    How, then, are those people of the futureŚwho are taking steroids every dayŚgoing to look back on baseball players who used steroids? They're going to look back on them as pioneers. They're going to look back at it and say "So what?" - Bill James, Cooperstown and the 'Roids

  7. #21
    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
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    Re: Red Sox, Pineiro agree to preliminary $4 million deal

    Most pitchers will get a short-term bump in their numbers moving from the rotation to the bullpen. They don't have to pace themselves, hitters don't get a second look at them that day, etc. I saw where PECOTA factors that in -- take the same pitcher who is in a "swing" role and they figure his bullpen innings will come with about a run less ERA than his rotation innings. (If I'm remembering that right.)

    If Pineiro still has a fastball he might not be bad out of the bullpen. But there's plenty of distance between "doesn't suck" and "Joe Nathan." The article I read linked from BP, Boston as much as admitted that if it doesn't work right out of the gate, oh well, we'll kick him to the curb and try someone else. That's not a luxury Cincinnati has.

    Frankly, I think that after last year's bullpen meltdown and resulting follies, Krivsky is overpaying a little for perceived reliability and consistency. That means guys with less upside but lower probability of being useless. In the absence of high-level arms waiting to break in, I can live with it. I just hope he takes the opportunity to flip some of them for better arms if we're not in the race.
    Not all who wander are lost

  8. #22
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    Re: Red Sox, Pineiro agree to preliminary $4 million deal

    Quote Originally Posted by IslandRed View Post
    In the absence of high-level arms waiting to break in, I can live with it. I just hope he takes the opportunity to flip some of them for better arms if we're not in the race.
    This is fine, but it certainly can't be anything but an ancillary method of changing the team's composition. Because I think it's fair to say that, at least right now, teams are being stingy with the good prospects, so it's unlikely that these old arms are going to bring much back at the deadline. Again, I think this method of composing a team dances around the perimeter of what needs to be done to fix the team (cf. Jim Bowden). Medium risk, low reward, if you will.

  9. #23
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Red Sox, Pineiro agree to preliminary $4 million deal

    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=131

    Scout’s Honor

    by Will Carroll

    Nick Cafardo’s latest piece explains why Joel Piniero is set to be the Red Sox next closer. Fine, they had something of a success (though I will argue it was accident rather than some Jamesian plan) with Jonathon Papelbon moving from starter to closer. Looking closer, you could see that Papelbon was being groomed to be a setup guy, not a closer. Piniero won’t get that same “soft start.” He’ll be watched and watched closely from Day One.

    I haven’t checked the PECOTA on Piniero, but it’s not numbers or “anything you can download” that made Piniero a Sock. (Sox?) It was scouting, specifically Allard Baird’s scouting. Forget for a second that it’s Baird, a man most have connected with failure for his tenure as the Royals GM. Just remember that it’s a scout. Remember that he saw something that no one else is on record as having seen. That the Mariners let Piniero very literally walk away for nothing after spending years hoping he’d be their next ace. That 28 other teams had the same shot at signing him.

    This comes down to someone’s observations, trained as they are, made over a short series of time, leaping to the conclusion, right or not, that Piniero can do a job he’s never done. Maybe he is. Are the things Baird lists as traits quantifiable or at least repeatable? Can Baird find other closers? If so, where was this skill in Kansas City, or in his previous stops along his baseball career? Is there any scout out there who’s known for having the specialty of spotting closers? Relievers?

    Some are going to call this typical egghead stathead math geek sabermetric defend Bill James group think Prospectus kool aid shots at the scouting community. It’s not. If anything, I want to know how he did it. I want to scout the scouts. Most of all, I want the scouts themselves to have the same type of accountability as we, the writers, do. When I said Mark Prior was hurt, I stood by it. When I said C.C. Sabathia would break down, I stood by it. I’ve been right a lot and wrong a lot, but I’ve been both clear about how I reached the conclusion and in eating my serving of crow when I was wrong.

    Will Baird, or any scout, or any GM, or anyone, stand up and do the same, right or wrong? It’s time we started collecting the data to judge just who are the best scouts and how they do what they do. The work they do is amazing, and much more than the guesswork and gut that they’re often portrayed as using. Knowing who is the best will help us learn how to do that job better and better scouting will mean better baseball.


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