UK basketball question

[Blimpie]

Well I think it's important to say that there's plenty of idiot UK bball fans but that doesn't mean that Tubby deserves carte blanche...

Mike D'Antoni??? Supposedly he's become disenchanted with the NBA... tell me any player that wouldn't love to play for a coach running Mike's offense with his obvious NBA credentials? There's a name for ya.

Let's see, a short Italian coach from the NBA. Something seems familiar to me...

[WMR]

HAhahahahahahaahahahaha

[WMR]

That's the thing, Blimpie... I *want* to like Tubby... he just makes it so damn hard.

[WMR]

And has what Tubby has done the past 7 years or so really that impressive? When you look at the teams he schedules, is a 20 win season really all that impressive considering that we ARE, after all, Kentucky? I dunno...

[jmac]

Havent read entire thread but I will mention on a louisville station last night, Barnhart was interviewed and said something like ..."I came here to add some Final Four's to my resume and I've not done that yet"

Tubby seems like a good coach to lead a team to a top 15 ranking but I have my doubts whether he can lead a program to the top on a "consistent" basis.
Sorta along the lines of Shottenhiemer.

People speak of Donavan etc but I think a guy like Travis Ford would be a good choice if the spot comes open.
A fast paced offense that would lure more big names to Ky.
Plus Ford would be a guy with deep Ky roots who I dont think would run off at first good offer.
I could be wrong but just my opinion.

[durl]

It is not just that UK would have to eat $ 4,000,000 to keep Tubby from coaching here. Barnhardt is a big Tubby backer and I think he realizes that there are no lead-pipe locks in this day and age in college basketball. Not many coaches can handle the pressure of these ridiculous fan expectations...and yes, they are ridiculous. Mitch knows that Tubby has the demeanor to handle the fellowship of the miserable. These are the same people who extrapolate statistics about the UK record during the last two years; however, they see fit to omit the statistics from the prior eight.

You're exactly right when it comes to Tubby's good numbers in his first years at UK. And we HAVE to pay attention to them because they represent what he's accomplished here.

That being said, (I'm sure you knew there was a "but" of some sort coming) it's the trend we've seen over the past several years that bothers me. The off-court drama from several years back coupled with extreme inconsistency on the court the past 2 years can be seen as warning signs that something is wrong. I don't take dismissing a head coach like Tubby lightly and I'm not a "what have you done for me lately" kind of fan. Losing early in the NCAAs, failing to beat a ranked team all season, long losing streaks to Florida and Vandy (!!!) seem to be the current trend and the good stats for the past few years are few and far between.

[jmac]

You're exactly right when it comes to Tubby's good numbers in his first years at UK. And we HAVE to pay attention to them because they represent what he's accomplished here.

That being said, (I'm sure you knew there was a "but" of some sort coming) it's the trend we've seen over the past several years that bothers me. The off-court drama from several years back coupled with extreme inconsistency on the court the past 2 years can be seen as warning signs that something is wrong. I don't take dismissing a head coach like Tubby and I'm not a "what have you done for me lately" kind of fan. Losing early in the NCAAs, failing to beat a ranked team all season, long losing streaks to Florida and Vandy (!!!) seem to be the current trend and the good stats for the past few years are few and far between.

I'm not big on using the "he won with so-and-so's players " but the fact is the first couple of years were not Tubby's recruits.
Here is my take on Tubby:
He does not recruit well.....He pulled out a few aces with guys like Hayes and Daniels but that isnt gonna happen very often.
Instead of kids like Loften, we wanted Stockten etc
Porter , Stevenson,Jasper would be good role players but not the kind that can carry a team.With this year's freshmen and if Lucas and Patterson say No,then UK will be hurting again.

There is now no mystic about coming to Rupp Arena.
Used to, teams knew...you "dont" expect to come to UK and win.
Not anymore.
Now teams like LSU and Georgia can come in without key players and play like they expect to win (and almost pull it off).
Tubby is a good guy but IMO the UK program has fallen into just "top 20" status now instead of one of the elite's.
As I said before...without the 2 kids who I doubt very seriously will come (patterson especially)....I dont see a Top 10 ranking any time soon.

[durl]

jmac, I agree completely with every point.

[Redhook]

I'm a big Kentucky fan it is painful to watch this year's team. This is the first year since 1990 (when I first started watching college basketball and shortly thereafter became a UK fan) that I have not watched or attempted to watch every single game. They're bad and boring.

UK has been on a downward trend for year's now. I like Tubby as a person and I actually think he is a good coach. I'm not a huge fan of his style of play, but it is effective and he usually doesn't have the fire power to play any differently. That being said, IMO, he is terrible at recruiting. Terrible. It's mindboggling that he can't get good players to play for him at Kentucky. One of the top 3 collegiate basketball programs and he gets average players. It's not a good sign when the University of Kentucky basketball coach, #1 program in NCAA wins IIRC, can't sign good high school players.

It's time to for Tubby to step down. It's been a good ride. Started out great and had some good times, but it's time to walk away Tubby. If he stays much longer it's going to be incredibly difficult for him because this team shows no promise of having a good year, by UK's standard, anytime soon. It could get ugly.

[jmac]

he usually doesn't have the fire power to play any differently. That being said, IMO, he is terrible at recruiting. Terrible. It's mindboggling that he can't get good players to play for him at Kentucky. One of the top 3 collegiate basketball programs and he gets average players. It's not a good sign when the University of Kentucky basketball coach, #1 program in NCAA wins IIRC, can't sign good high school players.

I was telling someone the other day that isnt it ironic: years ago Joe B Hall heard complaints constantly because he was always having several All-Americans on every team yet not win the big one.....and now we have a hard time "just getting" the All-Americans..period.

[Javy Pornstache]

1. In 10 years at UK, Tubby Smith has suffered 19 losses at Rupp Arena. Rick Pitino suffered only 5 losses at Rupp in eight years on the job. (7 losses if you count the probation year.)

2. Tubby Smith, with one more loss this year, will suffer his fifth double-digit loss season in 10 years as UK’s coach, compared to none by Rick Pitino. (1 if you count the probation year.)

3. Games played in, when the Cats were ranked number one in the nation: 10 under Pitino — 4 under Tubby.

4. The number of “Team Turmoil’s” in the program: Pitino 0 — Tubby 2.

5. The number of NBA first round draft picks from Kentucky: 10 under Pitino — 2 under Tubby.

6. The number of transfers out of the program: 7 under Pitino — 14 under Tubby.

7. Rick Pitino’s first Kentucky team, saddled with probation in the 1989—’90 season, averaged 10 points per game more than all but two of Tubby Smith’s Kentucky teams. Pitino’s teams averaged 8.9 points per game more than those two teams.

8. In Pitino’s last year at Kentucky, a runner-up to Arizona in the 1997 national championship game at the RCA Dome in Indianapolis, Kentucky averaged 83.13 points per game. Tubby’s UK teams, beginning in his first year on the job, have averaged the following: 1997-’98—80.08; 1998-’99—75.41; 1999-’00—69.09; 2000-’01—79.79; 2001-’02—76.88

2002-’03—77.28; 2003-’04—73.91; 2004-’05—73.62; 2005-’06—70.77; and 2006-’07—72.32, entering the Georgia game earlier this week.

9. The number of Final Fours: Pitino has been to five Final Fours, 3 with Kentucky. Tubby has been to one Final Four—the 1998 national championship team (Pitino’s players).

10. Tubby Smith has never recruited a kid that has played in a Final Four, and that counts his time at Tulsa and Georgia. Let me say that again. Tubby Smith has never recruited a player that has played in a Final Four. I wonder how that idiot Dick Vitale could spin that fact in Tubby’s favor?

11. One last tidbit. Rick Pitino has defeated 11 teams seeded 5th or higher in 6 NCAA Tournaments, while Tubby Smith has defeated 4 teams seeded 5th or higher, in 9 NCAA Tournaments. Tubby has defeated only one team seeded fifth or higher since his first season at Kentucky.
----
I personally am not just comparing Tubby to Pitino; regardless of comparison, Tubby's not getting the job done. Some of the above stats are certainly not as important as others, but there are very, very telling stats there. These are stats similar to what I have posted on here before, and many others have called up before, but putting them out there again as these ran in a story earlier today. Link:

http://www.somerset-kentucky.com/sit...061091206.html

[Blimpie]

Where's the stat comparing Pitino and Tubby for "12. Number/Frequency of daliances with NBA suitors?" (a.k.a. "right of passage into spring" for Lexingtonians throughout the early-late 90s)


Javy, in all seriousness, that's some pretty compelling stuff. After Pitino's tenth season in Louisville, let's you and I get together for a beer and we can see how his record stacks up against Denny Crum...

[Redhook]

1. In 10 years at UK, Tubby Smith has suffered 19 losses at Rupp Arena. Rick Pitino suffered only 5 losses at Rupp in eight years on the job. (7 losses if you count the probation year.)

2. Tubby Smith, with one more loss this year, will suffer his fifth double-digit loss season in 10 years as UK’s coach, compared to none by Rick Pitino. (1 if you count the probation year.)

3. Games played in, when the Cats were ranked number one in the nation: 10 under Pitino — 4 under Tubby.

4. The number of “Team Turmoil’s” in the program: Pitino 0 — Tubby 2.

5. The number of NBA first round draft picks from Kentucky: 10 under Pitino — 2 under Tubby.

6. The number of transfers out of the program: 7 under Pitino — 14 under Tubby.

7. Rick Pitino’s first Kentucky team, saddled with probation in the 1989—’90 season, averaged 10 points per game more than all but two of Tubby Smith’s Kentucky teams. Pitino’s teams averaged 8.9 points per game more than those two teams.

8. In Pitino’s last year at Kentucky, a runner-up to Arizona in the 1997 national championship game at the RCA Dome in Indianapolis, Kentucky averaged 83.13 points per game. Tubby’s UK teams, beginning in his first year on the job, have averaged the following: 1997-’98—80.08; 1998-’99—75.41; 1999-’00—69.09; 2000-’01—79.79; 2001-’02—76.88

2002-’03—77.28; 2003-’04—73.91; 2004-’05—73.62; 2005-’06—70.77; and 2006-’07—72.32, entering the Georgia game earlier this week.

9. The number of Final Fours: Pitino has been to five Final Fours, 3 with Kentucky. Tubby has been to one Final Four—the 1998 national championship team (Pitino’s players).

10. Tubby Smith has never recruited a kid that has played in a Final Four, and that counts his time at Tulsa and Georgia. Let me say that again. Tubby Smith has never recruited a player that has played in a Final Four. I wonder how that idiot Dick Vitale could spin that fact in Tubby’s favor?

11. One last tidbit. Rick Pitino has defeated 11 teams seeded 5th or higher in 6 NCAA Tournaments, while Tubby Smith has defeated 4 teams seeded 5th or higher, in 9 NCAA Tournaments. Tubby has defeated only one team seeded fifth or higher since his first season at Kentucky.
----
I personally am not just comparing Tubby to Pitino; regardless of comparison, Tubby's not getting the job done. Some of the above stats are certainly not as important as others, but there are very, very telling stats there. These are stats similar to what I have posted on here before, and many others have called up before, but putting them out there again as these ran in a story earlier today. Link:

http://www.somerset-kentucky.com/sit...061091206.html

Good stuff. Thanks for taking the time to type this up.

[Javy Pornstache]

Where's the stat comparing Pitino and Tubby for "12. Number/Frequency of daliances with NBA suitors?" (a.k.a. "right of passage into spring" for Lexingtonians throughout the early-late 90s)


Javy, in all seriousness, that's some pretty compelling stuff. After Pitino's tenth season in Louisville, let's you and I get together for a beer and we can see how his record stacks up against Denny Crum...

Haha, it's a plan, Blimpie, we'll do equal time and crunch Pitino-Crum numbers, no doubt.

You're right though, Rick did play up the NBA card quite often, but hey... at least he was in demand! Tubby at least did receive serious interest from the 76ers a few years back and was said to have received interest at other times from Atlanta and Charlotte off the top of my head, though I am not sure if there was much behind it. Best I remember though, he allegedly came close to taking the Sixers job before backing out/being talked out.

[Blimpie]

Haha, it's a plan, Blimpie, we'll do equal time and crunch Pitino-Crum numbers, no doubt.

You're right though, Rick did play up the NBA card quite often, but hey... at least he was in demand! Tubby at least did receive serious interest from the 76ers a few years back and was said to have received interest at other times from Atlanta and Charlotte off the top of my head, though I am not sure if there was much behind it. Best I remember though, he allegedly came close to taking the Sixers job before backing out/being talked out.

Yeah, recently the Atlanta thing for Tubby has popped up more than a few times in rumors. I think the owner down there has a man-crush on Tubby.

I guess the biggest differentiation in my mind was that, it was revealed after the fact, that Pitino was frequently having his people "reach out" to NBA owners about job openings. Meanwhile he would sit back and say "I have not had conversations with any teams..." From my UK fan perspective having to live through that, it gets old really fast. It also has its own little impact on recruiting.

To my knowledge, the only time Tubby has had any personal "conversations" with NBA team owners was when the 76ers job was offered. That was right on the heels of Saul Smith being booed at home for the season (class move) and I fully expected Tubby to leave at that time.